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  1. #51
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    For some people, this is as much about punishing behavior that they disagree with as it is about public health.
    Yes. Because it is a public health issue, and born out of willful ignorance and idiocy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    They're fine with behavior that puts people at risk as long as they agree with it.
    It's a matter of risk assessment and consequences; it's not simple binary.
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  2. #52
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @JAVO

    To be fair it isn't only about the kind of diseases we currently vaccinate. That can and has changed. For example if we were discussing this in a previous era, we'd be talking more about polio than about measles. But guess why we're not talking about polio.

  3. #53
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Brain dump

    The question isn't "should" people who are not vaccinated be segregated, but whether there is a rational basis in banning these people until they themselves get vaccinated.

    "May a State segregate unvaccinated citizens and their children, due to health concerns, under the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment?"

    Is it ok to quarantine people who are very sick, who can potentially get hundreds of other people very sick, under the constitution (such as the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment, or Cruel and Unusual Punishment under the 8th amendment?)

    Is it cruel and/or unusual punishment for quarantining people who contracted Ebola in the same way we should quarantine people who aren't vaccinated?

    Does an unvaccinated person pose as much/any danger to others as a person who is in high quarantine for very infectious diseases? People are vaccinated as a group as a reason. The world population deemed smallpox to be a threat. The whole world population found vaccines to irradiate smallpox as soon as possible. Not vaccinating everyone means the off chance that people who do get a disease to rapidly spread it towards people who should of been reasonably immune.

    Does the unvacinnated person have a right to not vaccinate while posing another person's right of not getting infected if the unvacinnated gets sick? Is one allowed to infringe on my right to not get sick?

    Should children of unvaccinated parents get the same treatment as their parents due to their neglect of vaccinating the child?

    Long story short, yes. There is probably quite a lot of cases that you can pull up to say this is reasonable. In some cases, the government is able to force people into obeying health concerns laws or creating laws that would limit/quarantine possible infections. One such case is the Slaughterhouse Cases where local slaughterers in New Orleans would throw unwanted parts of animals into the Mississippi River and contaminating the drinking water for thousands of citizens that live near the Mississippi during low-tides (when all the nasty stuff would move back in.) New Orleans created a fee-to-use building where slaughterers had to haul their cattle to be slaughtered. The Supreme Court said it was constitutional, and all the slaughterers in and around New Orleans had to bring their cattle there or risk getting in trouble.

    Now, the issue of children, on the other hand is harder to rule constitutional under Plyler V. Doe. Children are situated in an odd spot. Children are not old enough to make many of the decisions that adults make. What is worse is that children are the ones that suffer for an adult's mistake. Whether it is to "illegally" immigrate into another country and/or bringing the kid along to be "disadvantaged" with his/her peers, or following in their parent's footsteps due to the many examples he/she learned from the parent. At the same time, these children are the future of this country. How we treat them is how they view and treat the world in the future. A child that isn't taught properly can be a potential problem later in life for you, me, and the country. And that is the example the ruling decision of the Supreme Court didn't want to make.

    While the parents could be segregated due to potentially being a hazard to people and children who are vaccinated, children are often made to follow whatever the parents want. Could one possibly say child custody services for unvaccinated children?
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  4. #54
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    While I think there ought to be freedom to choose.. I'm like @Hard, I'm only a few steps behind forced vaccinations. This is a situation that's particularly difficult to compromise with. Lives are at stake, compromises mean putting children in danger one way or the other, and the reasons behind them are so unsound that if I heard someone talking like that about anything else I'd swear they were mad.

    HIV was poorly understood when people were isolating those guys, there was a lot of panic, and even now most people don't understand how it works--we recently in the news just discovered that females can contract from other females.. something we didn't think was possible until we had a first case of confirmed transmission. The point is, what happened with the isolation was bad and awful.. but that doesn't mean isolation itself is a bad thing even if it was executed poorly in the past.

    I really don't see a problem with anti-vaxxers being 'stranded' with their kids if the refuse to volunteer to vaccinate because the reality is the kids suffer if you don't. Not just yours--others' kids. Your decisions affect other people with this drastically. With technology, online schools, home schooling, private schools, tutors, and all sorts of options, I do not see a big deal with public schools requiring vaccines and titers for those without medical waivers to bump up the herd protection. Don't want your child vaccinated? Fine. But unlike HIV where the truth is casual contact is not a concern... Not knowing who is not vaccinated and keeping them away from those who can't be vaccinated is a real issue that needs addressing. I'm not saying bracelets have to be worn, but there are clever ways around it that could still protect the kids.

    Measles isn't an idea, it's a real disease that will not go away. They all are. They all have real potentials for death. Children and parents can mean no harm and still kill other peoples' children. And there's a scary growing trend of dismissal of these diseases--that they aren't dangerous, as a way to help justify their cause and beliefs. (Work computer means I can't post the link, but just google search it and I'm sure you'll find the video some whack job posted of 1960's TV shows "PROVING" that measles aren't a big deal and pharmacies are just money hungry. I think it was on that awful greenmedinfo page.)

    I DO think titers should be necessary at schools and jobs, not just vaccine results if the vaccine was given more than a certain time ago. Vaccines aren't enough.. you have to know it worked. I recently got titers done only to determine my MMR was no good and I needed a second dosage. Some people 'forget' diseases after a while, and need re-dos.
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  5. #55
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    While I think there ought to be freedom to choose.. I'm like Hard, I'm only a few steps behind forced vaccinations. This is a situation that's particularly difficult to compromise with. Lives are at stake, compromises mean putting children in danger one way or the other, and the reasons behind them are so unsound that if I heard someone talking like that about anything else I'd swear they were mad.

    HIV was poorly understood when people were isolating those guys, there was a lot of panic, and even now most people don't understand how it works--we recently in the news just discovered that females can contract from other females.. something we didn't think was possible until we had a first case of confirmed transmission. The point is, what happened with the isolation was bad and awful.. but that doesn't mean isolation itself is a bad thing even if it was executed poorly in the past.

    I really don't see a problem with anti-vaxxers being 'stranded' with their kids if the refuse to volunteer to vaccinate because the reality is the kids suffer if you don't. Not just yours--others' kids. Your decisions affect other people with this drastically. With technology, online schools, home schooling, private schools, tutors, and all sorts of options, I do not see a big deal with public schools requiring vaccines and titers for those without medical waivers to bump up the herd protection. Don't want your child vaccinated? Fine. But unlike HIV where the truth is casual contact is not a concern... Not knowing who is not vaccinated and keeping them away from those who can't be vaccinated is a real issue that needs addressing. I'm not saying bracelets have to be worn, but there are clever ways around it that could still protect the kids.

    Measles isn't an idea, it's a real disease that will not go away. They all are. They all have real potentials for death. Children and parents can mean no harm and still kill other peoples' children. And there's a scary growing trend of dismissal of these diseases--that they aren't dangerous, as a way to help justify their cause and beliefs. (Work computer means I can't post the link, but just google search it and I'm sure you'll find the video some whack job posted of 1960's TV shows "PROVING" that measles aren't a big deal and pharmacies are just money hungry. I think it was on that awful greenmedinfo page.)

    I DO think titers should be necessary at schools and jobs, not just vaccine results if the vaccine was given more than a certain time ago. Vaccines aren't enough.. you have to know it worked. I recently got titers done only to determine my MMR was no good and I needed a second dosage. Some people 'forget' diseases after a while, and need re-dos.
    And look at this, Rand Paul is now standing by people who refuse vaccination, and makes the patently false claim that vaccines are linked to mental disorders. Not entirely surprising considering he is the king of anecdotes.

    The fact that politicans are now getting in this on the wrong side is bring my anger over this to a whole new level. I'm absolutely beside myself.

    Rand Paul: Vaccines Can Lead to 'Mental Disorders'. THIS, above all else, can and will bring WORSE HARM upon the world. These people are taken seriously by a huge portion of the population. Do they have any idea of how much measurable harm they are toying with causing?
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  6. #56
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    And look at this, Rand Paul is now standing by people who refuse vaccination, and makes the patently false claim that vaccines are linked to mental disorders. Not entirely surprising considering he is the king of anecdotes.

    The fact that politicans are now getting in this on the wrong side is bring my anger over this to a whole new level. I'm absolutely beside myself.

    Rand Paul: Vaccines Can Lead to 'Mental Disorders'. THIS, above all else, can and will bring WORSE HARM upon the world. These people are taken seriously by a huge portion of the population. Do they have any idea of how much measurable harm they are toying with causing?
    Funny isn't it how people can be sued for spreading lies about other people.. but won't ever be touched for spreading lies about public health.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    I have decided not to take any vaccines since like 14 years or so, even tho they have been offered few times during the time. Tetanus vaccine is really the only one i even thought of getting(if i were to travel somewhere where vaccines would be highly recommended, i would take them tho), but i decided that if its going to be what kills me, so be it.. I really dont want any aluminium to be injected in me because of its neurotoxicity and the fact that it doesent leave the body, but accumulates there over time and potentially leading to neurodegeneration or decline of autoimmunity system over time.

    I dont think people should be forced to put anything in their system that they dont want to. Sure not taking vaccines might have its risks, but so does taking them, and it should be everyones personal choice which risk they want to take.

    And even tho i dont take vaccines, im not completely anti-vaccine, its a good idea to take them if there is some real risk of getting some potentially fatal infection that they can prevent.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Unsafe vaccinations that don't have science on their side I can understand. But the majority of vaccines are safe. People can cite statistics all they want, but the fact of the matter is that statistics are the most worthless evidence of all types of evidence. The only thing worse than statistical evidence is statistical evidence about eyewitness accounts. Even anecdotal is better than statistical evidence.

    The problem with statistical safety of vaccines is that parents who have absolutely no background in science look at statistics and get impressed, which is colored by the fact that they're concerned for their kids. I understand that, being a parent sucks. Especially when you have to choose between a scary shot and a disease they only might get later on in life. We drift towards the thing that doesn't immediately worry us. But just because one kid got meningitis that may or may not be related to the vaccine they got and it had to be cited in the study as a potential case of harmful reaction does not make the vaccine unsafe. And, yes, kids get reactions to things. I was allergic to my whooping cough vaccine and couldn't have any more. You know what I got later in life? Whooping cough. And it was hell. I could have died. But just because I had one reaction to one vaccine doesn't mean nobody should ever get a vaccination ever because they might get a reaction. Being scared of making the right choice isn't a reason for making the wrong one.

    Where does that line end? Not getting shots at all? Not eating peanuts in case you're allergic? Not eating food? Let's just diet on the sun like those crazy people in California. Unless you're allergic to the sun.

    True fact? Things are dangerous. Vaccinations are hedging our bets against the ones we can control. That doesn't mean the bet is still safe, but it's still statistically advantageous.

    Now, as for the government requiring vaccination, it actually doesn't. The government only requires you to have vaccinations to attend public schools. Which makes sense. If you get a bunch of kids packed away in a single building, it's generally a good idea to make sure they're all as safe as we can make them from diseases we've gotten the scientific jump on. Dog parks require you to have your dog vaccinated. It's not some kind of inhumane thing.

    But the government doesn't actually require your kids to have vaccinations as a rule. Individual states might, but that's a different issue. The scary thing is that moms who make bad medical decisions based on a misunderstanding of how statistics work are also homeschooling their children. Those kids are the real victims.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    "True fact"...what a term.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'm glad that most anti-vaxers are highly open and opinionated and easy to spot as a result, everyone should exercise their God given right to dissociate from them if they so choose.

    I mean its unlikely to be their attitude to disease control alone which is indicated by their anti-vax opinions but a host of other views too, such as their view of social responsibility, attitude to science, medicine, public health, even politics.

    Anti-vax politics to me is a moteley mix of libertarianism, anti-statism, extreme individualism, luddism etc., even some gross backwoods anti-semitism of the secret government, global finance cabal, illuminati jew variety, I dont want to hang with or associate with those people. Too much crazy and stupid.

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