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  1. #41
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee
    About 145,000 people died in 2013 (most recent numbers) according to WHO.
    "1.5 millionpeople died of AIDS-related illnesses worldwide in 2013" World Health Organization

    HIV is not spread by casual contact, nor is it airborn, like measles.
    We have two diseases, one that kills 145,000 people each year and another disease that kills 1.5 million each year but some of you want to segregate only the airborn carriers even though it's only one-tenth as deadly as the other?

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles
    the difference is that people who choose to forego vaccines choose to be a risk. Immigrants don't inherently choose to not be vaccinated and HIV carriers are already carriers so that is moot.
    Crossing the border illegally is a choice. Letting them into the country without a health check-up is a choice and dispersing them into our schools is a choice as well. HIV is mostly a behavioral disease as well; people get HIV from choices they make, no?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #42
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Crossing the border illegally is a choice. Letting them into the country without a health check-up is a choice and dispersing them into our schools is a choice as well. HIV is mostly a behavioral disease as well; people get HIV from choices they make, no?
    Those are different choices and different issues. Let's not get carried away and lose focus. Choosing to not have smoke detectors is also a choice but that doesn't mean we have to include fire safety into the mix.

    Or in other words we're talking about people who choose to not get vaccinated and what to do with them. This is specific enough to weigh on its own merits without confounding it by adding more stuff.
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  3. #43
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles
    Or in other words we're talking about people who choose to not get vaccinated and what to do with them. This is specific enough to weigh on its own merits without confounding it by adding more stuff.
    We're discussing choices that could potentially harm the public, no? All of the examples I listed are choices that could potentially harm the public health.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #44
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    We're discussing choices that could potentially harm the public, no? All of the examples I listed are choices that could potentially harm the public health.
    No, we're talking about one choice that can harm the public. If we start including all this other stuff it will become more and more intractable until meaningful discussion becomes impossible.

    Immigrants choose to cross the border - has no direct relationship to vaccinations
    We choose to let them in schools - has no direct relationship to vaccinations
    People get HIV as a result of choices - has no direct relationship to vaccinations
    People choose to not be vaccinated - direct relationship to vaccinations
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  5. #45
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles
    If we start including all this other stuff it will become more and more intractable until meaningful discussion becomes impossible.
    I only raised the question to see if there is any logical consistency and there doesn't appear to be any. For some people, this is as much about punishing behavior that they disagree with as it is about public health. They're fine with behavior that puts people at risk as long as they agree with it.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #46
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I only raised the question to see if there is any logical consistency and there doesn't appear to be any. For some people, this is as much about punishing behavior that they disagree with as it is about public health. They're fine with behavior that puts people at risk as long as they agree with it.
    That might have been your intent but I didn't see it come across. It just looked like you were considering different issues to me.

    Even so, consistency isn't pragmatically necessary. I'd argue that nobody is truly consistent.

  7. #47
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Tellenbach

    Or look at it this way. Let's pretend that immigrants and HIV don't exist and we independently come up with a solution for the question of segregating people who choose to not be vaccinated. Let's say there's nothing for it to be consistent with except for itself, and we come up with a solution which seems generally satisfactory. That's ok right?

    But what happens if we add immigrants now and make an inconsistent decision regarding immigrants. Should we let that also ruin the issue of vaccinations which was already independently resolved?

    Consistency is good insofar that it doesn't paralyze the system when seeking it out.

  8. #48
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Mexico and South and Central American countries have better vaccination rates than the US. It's likely that most of the undocumented immigrants coming from there are already vaccinated.

    Disease Threat From Immigrant Children Wildly Overstated - The Texas Observer
    Vectors or Victims? Docs Slam Rumors That Migrants Carry Disease - NBC News
    Mexico more effective than U.S. at immunizing children | Vaccination News

  9. #49
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    In many ways, it's just one more of those issue which gets everyone's emotions stirred up enough to incite a religious war without really understanding the underlying issues. I don't claim to understand them fully, but I have tried to as much emotion-driven bias as I humanly can.

    I don't have the time or desire to communicate my full perspective, but here's a snippet of part of it.

    First, what is the problem we're trying to solve? Is it really a problem, or just a perceived problem. All of the words we use to discuss it are already somewhat fear-loaded words. Disease! Infection! Bacteria! Virus! And then we have the others like "anti-vaxxer."

    From: Ask the Experts about Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR) Vaccines - CDC experts answer Q&As (a site sponsored partially by the CDC)

    How serious are measles, mumps, and rubella?

    Measles can lead to serious complications and death, even with modern medical care. The 1989–1991 measles outbreak in the U.S. resulted in more than 55,000 cases and more than 100 deaths. In the United States, from 1987 to 2000, the most commonly reported complications associated with measles infection were pneumonia (6%), otitis media (7%), and diarrhea (8%). For every 1,000 reported measles cases in the United States, approximately one case of encephalitis and two to three deaths resulted. The risk for death from measles or its complications is greater for infants, young children, and adults than for older children and adolescents.

    Mumps most commonly causes fever and parotitis. Up to 25% of persons with mumps have few or no symptoms. Complications of mumps include orchitis (inflammation of the testicle) and oophoritis (inflammation of the ovary). Other complications of mumps include pancreatitis, deafness, aseptic meningitis, and encephalitis.

    Rubella is generally a mild illness with low-grade fever, lymphadenopathy, and malaise. Up to 50% of rubella virus infections are subclinical. Complications can include thrombocytopenic purpura and encephalitis. Rubella virus is teratogenic and infection in a pregnant woman, especially during the first trimester can result in miscarriage, stillbirth, and birth defects including cataracts, hearing loss, mental retardation, and congenital heart defects.

    How serious are the potential complications of the vaccine?

    CDC - Measles Fact Sheet for Parents - Vaccines

    What are the side effects?
    Most children do not have any side effects from the shot. The side effects that do occur are usually very mild, such as a fever or rash. More serious side effects are rare. These may include high fever that could cause a seizure (in about 1 person out of every 3,000 who get the shot) and temporary pain and stiffness in joints (mostly in teens and adults).
    If we do a simplistic comparison of measles versus the measles vaccine, here are the results for two separate groups of 3,000 people:

    Team Measles
    They are 3,000 people who get the measles.
    Based on CDC statistics quoted above (1 case of encephalitis and 3 deaths per 1,000 cases), 12 people on this team die or have severe brain damage from encephalitis. (This of course ignores the other less-severe complications for the same of this simplified comparison.)

    Team Vaxxer
    They are 3,000 people who get the vaccine.
    Based on CDC statistics quoted above (1 case of fever-induced seizure per 1,000 cases), 1 person on this team has a fever-induced seizure. If you read about that, you'll find that fever-induced seizures in children generally have no lasting effects or increased risk of future seizures.

    At first glance, Team Vaxxer is the clear winner of this silly Vaccine Bowl. What hasn't been factored in is the unknown and untracked effects the vaccine had. Maybe there were none, or maybe they were too subtle to connect directly to the vaccine.

    Taking a slightly different approach, a rational person might ask if it's really necessary to intervene to prevent something which is frequently benign and has outcomes and risks which are not usually much more severe than the common cold. Pneumonia and otitis media (middle ear infection) are all complications of the common cold, and diarrhea is a common complication of the fast food you ate while you were sick with that cold. Death due to motor vehicle accident is a potential complication of driving to get that fast food. And by the way, that fast food is slowly killing you already anyway. Deafness, meningitis, encephalitis, asthma attacks, and strep throat leading to strep infection of organs (scarlet fever) are all potential outcomes of cold complications. And, guess where you're likely to encounter people with a cold and one or more of these contagious complications? At the doctor's office where you're getting the vaccination.

    Here's a report of a few known or suspected adverse effects of vaccines with the likelihood of causality indicated.

    An essential element of both science and medicine is a skeptical, questioning attitude, and an openness to being subjected to that itself. Why the sudden knee-jerk, emotional, defensiveness and name-calling from science and medicine? That reaction itself is concerning and fuels suspicions. Should they be calling those who question them "anti-vaxxers", accusing people of being irresponsible parents, and calling for mandatory forced vaccinations? Or should they be providing evidence of the benefits of vaccination instead of the usual circular reasoning about how vaccination is one of the greatest modern medical achievements?

    And why are people skeptical?

    "If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience." -George Bernard Shaw


  10. #50
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles
    Consistency is good insofar that it doesn't paralyze the system when seeking it out.
    I'm a pragmatist. The goal of public policy should be the protection of the public and I'm fine with inconsistent solutions to address different diseases, but we shouldn't ignore problems because of political correctness or some warped ideology. There are still tens of thousands of new HIV infections each year in the US. The government has largely ignored this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy
    It's likely that most of the undocumented immigrants coming from there are already vaccinated.
    Even if that were true, there are diseases endemic in other parts of the world (like Ebola) that we'd want to avoid here.

    For example:

    On July 10, 2014, CDC was informed by the California Department of Public Health and ORR about four unaccompanied male children aged 14–16 years with respiratory illnesses at Naval Base Ventura County, three of whom were hospitalized with pneumonia. Among the three patients with pneumonia, two were bacteremic with Streptococcus pneumoniae, ultimately determined to be serotype 5, one of whom also had laboratory-confirmed influenza B virus by polymerase chain reaction (PCR). The fourth patient, without pneumonia, had PCR-confirmed influenza A(H1N1)pdm09. Pneumococcal bacteremia is uncommon among U.S. adolescents, particularly serotype 5, with only three such cases identified in the past 10 years by CDC (2).
    Notes from the Field: Hospitalizations for Respiratory Disease Among Unaccompanied Children from Central America — Multiple States, June–July 2014
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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