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  1. #61
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
    You joke but unfortunately many people often think this way when they find themselves on the side of any majority. People have a way of forgetting the constitution was written in such a way so as to allow government to function in a manner which should represent the best interests of the majority whilst protecting those of the minority.
    All that's fine, I've no objection to that at all but if homosexuality is a minority norm, of which some people dont want to learn about, then why not accept that and tailor the curriculum that way?

    Compelling kids to sit through compulsory schooling in homosexuality is not going to endear them to the homosexual minority, especially if its something which others, including adults, such as teachers, parents etc. are going to find equally objectionable.

    If there is a magic bullet to expell bigotry this definitely is not it.

    Now if you teach that for the majority heterosexuality is the norm and always will be, that is a heteronormative approach, you will be condemned as a bigot, despite the fact that its what is real for most people.

    On a side note I've been observing a facebook debate for most of the day about vaccination, its pretty clear that Americans dont understand what vaccination is or how it works or how if a sufficiently large population of kids opt out of it it will not work and be pointless, I was really shocked at the ignorance of how this works and the possible consequences. Now the whole ignorance of it was couched in extremely libertarian terms, ie states not going to tell anyone what to do, people going to parent how they see fit, love all the people however they choose to raise their children etc.

    Reading that kind of thing makes me think there are more important things, more fundamental things to get right than teaching LGBT issues. And no I'm not saying its an either/or issue but a matter of priorities.

  2. #62
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    All that's fine, I've no objection to that at all but if homosexuality is a minority norm, of which some people dont want to learn about, then why not accept that and tailor the curriculum that way?

    Compelling kids to sit through compulsory schooling in homosexuality is not going to endear them to the homosexual minority, especially if its something which others, including adults, such as teachers, parents etc. are going to find equally objectionable.

    If there is a magic bullet to expell bigotry this definitely is not it.

    Now if you teach that for the majority heterosexuality is the norm and always will be, that is a heteronormative approach, you will be condemned as a bigot, despite the fact that its what is real for most people.

    On a side note I've been observing a facebook debate for most of the day about vaccination, its pretty clear that Americans dont understand what vaccination is or how it works or how if a sufficiently large population of kids opt out of it it will not work and be pointless, I was really shocked at the ignorance of how this works and the possible consequences. Now the whole ignorance of it was couched in extremely libertarian terms, ie states not going to tell anyone what to do, people going to parent how they see fit, love all the people however they choose to raise their children etc.

    Reading that kind of thing makes me think there are more important things, more fundamental things to get right than teaching LGBT issues. And no I'm not saying its an either/or issue but a matter of priorities.
    Really we should keep value statements out of the realm of education and just teach facts as much as possible, in as far as we know them in the times in which we live. Definitions of types of personal expressions, like what 'gay' generally means, and what the risks are when one engages in a gay lifestyle, etc for all such lifestyles, such as poly or bi, which is becoming more prevalent in our society, seems like a good thing and, as long as it is not encouraged or attached to a value statement of any sort, promoting or prohibiting, is something that would definitely fall within the realm of sex education or health class. For me the problems come in when schools try to push 'tolerance' or other values onto children. It is the fundamental rights of parents, and only parents, to teach their children values. If kids seek out values education from others, that is the parents' business, and not the schools' right, I believe. Schools are to educate our children so they may become productive members of society academically, not to teach them ethics or values. Those things fall to families, churches, and friends.

    As far as vaccinations go, my experience is that the uneducated are more likely to get their kids vaccinated. Usually parents who forego vaccination have read books and materials about it, and discussed it with others, usually several times, before making up their mind not to immunize. Listening to a health department propaganda about immunizations, and doing what they say, does not make you 'educated' about immunizations, only a compliant patient.

    And as to whether the un-immunized cause problems? It isn't a problem as long as those who desire to be immunized still can be. Immunizations are not always a cure-all, as exemplified by chickenpox and whooping cough outbreaks, even among the immunized.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Really we should keep value statements out of the realm of education and just teach facts as much as possible, in as far as we know them in the times in which we live. Definitions of types of personal expressions, like what 'gay' generally means, and what the risks are when one engages in a gay lifestyle, etc for all such lifestyles, such as poly or bi, which is becoming more prevalent in our society, seems like a good thing and, as long as it is not encouraged or attached to a value statement of any sort, promoting or prohibiting, is something that would definitely fall within the realm of sex education or health class. For me the problems come in when schools try to push 'tolerance' or other values onto children. It is the fundamental rights of parents, and only parents, to teach their children values. If kids seek out values education from others, that is the parents' business, and not the schools' right, I believe. Schools are to educate our children so they may become productive members of society academically, not to teach them ethics or values. Those things fall to families, churches, and friends.
    There is some sense in what you say because I think the LGBT curriculum would be value laden and about validating and reinforcing homosexuality rather than choices or facts about sexual orientation.

    On the other hand I dont mind there being values and ethics within the schools, I believe in religious schools and went to one. Most Roman Catholics do.

    As far as vaccinations go, my experience is that the uneducated are more likely to get their kids vaccinated. Usually parents who forego vaccination have read books and materials about it, and discussed it with others, usually several times, before making up their mind not to immunize. Listening to a health department propaganda about immunizations, and doing what they say, does not make you 'educated' about immunizations, only a compliant patient.

    And as to whether the un-immunized cause problems? It isn't a problem as long as those who desire to be immunized still can be. Immunizations are not always a cure-all, as exemplified by chickenpox and whooping cough outbreaks, even among the immunized.
    The thing about your government department or health service provider is they are not in the business of propaganda, its not a commercial service which is liable to involve lying for a profit, it something which the third world would jump at given the chance but they cant afford it.

    Vaccination programs depend upon participation, everyone being vaccinated or everyone one a very small number of people being vaccinated or it is ineffective, those who do not participate become carriers the disease remains around and when the immunity is one the wane it infects even those who were vaccinated. It is why Disneyland suffered an outbreak of measles.

    This is what happens when vulgar libertarianism, individualism and the ignorance of a little information (a little information is a dangerous thing) join together.

    To be honest I think that the majority of anti-vax propaganda, which is propaganda because it serves very political purposes usually, looks more and more like the US public being trolled and its too easy and it works too well, provided it is anyone other than official US sources saying it the US public appears really, really credulous.

    So I wouldnt be surprised if when the US does things to protect its population from disease that every developed nation takes for granted and some developing world nations are quite envious of its too easy for foreign nations to sow the seeds of abstaining and fucking it all up, its easy psyops, not even complex psyops.

    If it works with measles imagine what way a strike on the US involving ebola or something like it would work out?

    Ignorance of those sorts of things matters, ignorance of anal sex or same sex couples or gender confusion I dont think matters as much because it doesnt risk extinction for massive, massive parts of the country or even the world.

  4. #64
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There is some sense in what you say because I think the LGBT curriculum would be value laden and about validating and reinforcing homosexuality rather than choices or facts about sexual orientation.

    On the other hand I dont mind there being values and ethics within the schools, I believe in religious schools and went to one. Most Roman Catholics do.



    The thing about your government department or health service provider is they are not in the business of propaganda, its not a commercial service which is liable to involve lying for a profit, it something which the third world would jump at given the chance but they cant afford it.

    Vaccination programs depend upon participation, everyone being vaccinated or everyone one a very small number of people being vaccinated or it is ineffective, those who do not participate become carriers the disease remains around and when the immunity is one the wane it infects even those who were vaccinated. It is why Disneyland suffered an outbreak of measles.

    This is what happens when vulgar libertarianism, individualism and the ignorance of a little information (a little information is a dangerous thing) join together.

    To be honest I think that the majority of anti-vax propaganda, which is propaganda because it serves very political purposes usually, looks more and more like the US public being trolled and its too easy and it works too well, provided it is anyone other than official US sources saying it the US public appears really, really credulous.

    So I wouldnt be surprised if when the US does things to protect its population from disease that every developed nation takes for granted and some developing world nations are quite envious of its too easy for foreign nations to sow the seeds of abstaining and fucking it all up, its easy psyops, not even complex psyops.

    If it works with measles imagine what way a strike on the US involving ebola or something like it would work out?

    Ignorance of those sorts of things matters, ignorance of anal sex or same sex couples or gender confusion I dont think matters as much because it doesnt risk extinction for massive, massive parts of the country or even the world.
    Propaganda: "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view."

    The health dept and government use propaganda in their claims for vaccinations because they mislead parents into thinking that if they do not do all the vaccinations the government touts, their child might become sick and die. Actually, most of the diseases immunized against would, at the most, cause discomfort and illness, not death. Also, there has not been much study into what happens to babies immune system when exposed to such an onslaught of chemical agents at such a young age; they give numerous types of vaccinations when the child is only weeks old! One of the most senseless being hepatitis B. I'm not sure of the demographic where you live, but in my community, babies are usually not sexually active, nor IV drug users.

    A person would not get measles who is vaccinated with measles, so those who want to protect themselves by vaccination, are protected.

    My point is: It is the right of individuals (and parents' right for their minors) to refuse vaccinations, and they should not be ridiculed for this by the government or society (which they are).
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  5. #65
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I would expect someone who works in healthcare to have a better understanding of herd immunity. It's not as simple as "those who are vaccinated are protected." Vaccines work best when most people are vaccinated and the pathogen is not able to get a foothold in a population. Some people are not able to get vaccines (infants, those in treatment for cancer or other illnesses, etc) and they are not protected unless the population at large is vaccinated. And since the vaccine is about 97% effective, that means some vaccinated people are also at risk when significant numbers of people refuse to vaccinate.

    Why Did Vaccinated People Get Measles at Disneyland? Blame the Unvaccinated | WIRED
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  6. #66
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I would expect someone who works in healthcare to have a better understanding of herd immunity. It's not as simple as "those who are vaccinated are protected." Vaccines work best when most people are vaccinated and the pathogen is not able to get a foothold in a population. Some people are not able to get vaccines (infants, those in treatment for cancer or other illnesses, etc) and they are not protected unless the population at large is vaccinated. We're all at risk when significant numbers of people refuse to vaccinate.

    Why Did Vaccinated People Get Measles at Disneyland? Blame the Unvaccinated | WIRED
    I just have never felt comfortable as an informed mother going along rotely with all the vaccinations a government agency decides my kids need. Especially when my kids are not at very high risk for many things where I live.

    It's one thing to calculate statistics on data and accumulate incidence and prevalence data on disease. But I believe the government does not have the right to browbeat their idealized treatment regimens on society at large, which consist mainly of medically un(der) educated parents, in their self-righteous zealotry to 'protect' the masses using whatever means necessary, even denigration and degradation (as you are doing here).

    In short, I, nor my kids, are a 'number'. We are perfectly capable of picking and choosing and shopping for which medications we feel are good for us to use.
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  7. #67
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    As I mentioned above, it's not all about you and your kids. Babies who have not completed the vaccine schedule and immunocompromised people who are not able to get vaccinated at all count on the rest of us to keep these diseases from getting a foothold in the population and putting them at risk.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post

    In short, I, nor my kids, are a 'number'. We are perfectly capable of picking and choosing and shopping for which medications we feel are good for us to use.
    By making that choice, you made the choice to infect unprotected people, like newborns and people with depressed immunity or anyone else unable to be vaccinated. You don't have the right to put others at risk without their consent.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Propaganda: "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view."

    The health dept and government use propaganda in their claims for vaccinations because they mislead parents into thinking that if they do not do all the vaccinations the government touts, their child might become sick and die. Actually, most of the diseases immunized against would, at the most, cause discomfort and illness, not death. Also, there has not been much study into what happens to babies immune system when exposed to such an onslaught of chemical agents at such a young age; they give numerous types of vaccinations when the child is only weeks old! One of the most senseless being hepatitis B. I'm not sure of the demographic where you live, but in my community, babies are usually not sexually active, nor IV drug users.

    A person would not get measles who is vaccinated with measles, so those who want to protect themselves by vaccination, are protected.

    My point is: It is the right of individuals (and parents' right for their minors) to refuse vaccinations, and they should not be ridiculed for this by the government or society (which they are).
    I think they should be ridiculed surely, its the same to me as anyone making extraordinary atavistic claims, like they are only going to use a horse and trap from now on for travel in down town New York, in an individual that is ecentric, in a community its the amish, in a society its the sign of some sort of decline I think, when people have the remedies but refuse them.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    As I mentioned above, it's not all about you and your kids. Babies who have not completed the vaccine schedule and immunocompromised people who are not able to get vaccinated at all count on the rest of us to keep these diseases from getting a foothold in the population and putting them at risk.
    I remember reading about this topic in social policy, it was considered by libertarians of the most radical stripe (and I mean the sorts who favoured entirely private police forces, no child protective services, education, health, water or amenities which were not paid for privately etc.) as the only legitimate social programme or social spending because of the fundamentally social nature disease.

    Now I dont actually think disease is the exception, I think its just the most obvious example of its kind, there's lots of other examples of public goods that I can think of, not least of which is street lighting, who would subscribe or light an area themselves if others benefit without paying for it etc.

    Anyway, my point was that ignorance of disease is a bigger problem than ignorance of alternative sexualities, which most people could and do live out their entire lives in ignorance of, the thought never entering their heads about it, and living good and pleasant untroubled lives at that.

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