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  1. #51
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I hope you wouldnt wind up alienating the majority and animating them to despise the minority in a fashion they hadnt even thought about before hand. Good luck with that though.
    I don't think most people in the majority would despise the minority because their needs are addressed in the curriculum alongside the needs of the majority. Maybe just a few with an agenda.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think most people in the majority would despise the minority because their needs are addressed in the curriculum alongside the needs of the majority. Maybe just a few with an agenda.
    You are optimistic and I know you mean well.

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why so? Did you think there's a contradiction there?

    I dont see being open minded and being schooled as the same thing, I dont see education and schooling as the same thing either.
    "I can be open-minded and want my kids to not learn about something" is a little bit contradictory, yes. That you don't understand this is a little amusing.

    Based on everything you've said in this thread so far you don't seem to know what education or schooling (or open-mindedness) are at all.

  4. #54
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    The main problem with this is that gender identity is just that: an issue of identity. Whereas homosexuality is a sexual issue, which should be taught in a sexual education class. If we taught gender identity issues in a sexual education class, it'd be a sexual and identity education class. Do you see the problem?

    Just because it deals with the private parts doesn't mean it belongs in a sex ed class. We don't teach urination and defecation in sex ed classes, right?

    Plus, the parts don't matter. If you were identifying with a sex, then the parts would matter. Gender is an abstract concept. The fact that most people with different gender identities than their birth sex have gender reassignment surgery is a moot point.

    Unless of course you want to teach gender reassignment surgery in relation to sex, like how people who have gender reassignment surgery have sex, in which case it would be material suited for a sexual education class, but the underlying factors for it -- i.e. gender identity -- is still not relevant.
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  5. #55
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I hope you wouldnt wind up alienating the majority and animating them to despise the minority in a fashion they hadnt even thought about before hand. Good luck with that though.
    So do you think all education should focus on the majority, with minimal acknowledgment of people who fall outside those limits? That kind of reasoning leads to positions like Kullervo's, where each group should keep to itself so it can be the majority that gets attention*. Hard to do, though, when people can be in the majority on some axes and in a minority on several others.

    *Yes, I'm reading a bit into this here.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  6. #56
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    sorry guys, but since you're only 49% of the population we're gonna need to leave out all the guy stuff


    so sex ed isn't gonna cover anything the guys need to know, once again we apologize for the inconvenience
    J. Scott Crothers
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    sorry guys, but since you're only 49% of the population we're gonna need to leave out all the guy stuff


    so sex ed isn't gonna cover anything the guys need to know, once again we apologize for the inconvenience
    All right. We meekly acknowledge that information concerning anything but the norm inevitably leads to the biological subversion of that norm.
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  8. #58
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Please. You just sound ridiculous. There is more out there than the "norm" you know. Learning that is what learning is. I go right back to what I originally said in this thread - I don't find things outside the norm of my home to be threatening. I value my children and their intelligence enough to be willing to teach them the differences in people, not perpetuate ignorance by "shielding" them from those differences.
    Quote Originally Posted by headlessredhead View Post
    Children and teenagers are not fools. They know these things exist and it's more than just black vs white, left vs right, etc. I'm just saying that there should be an opportunity for education here, so that people can shed light on these subjects that shouldn't even be taboo in the first place. Sex is natural and should be talked about, rather than shamed and ignored. Ignorance will never solve anything.
    To be honest, my kids are more aware and have more friends of a diverse background than I did when I was young. Now if I were to just dismiss people based on aspects of background, my children would think less of me as a person and as a parent; the reality is that they've already experienced people different from them and found out they really aren't so much different after all, so in their eyes I'd be lacking wisdom and holding prejudices, and I'd be hard pressed to disagree. But since i prefer to evaluate people on their personal merits, that's not really a problem. When I engage my kids, I'd much rather explore topics and provide guidance so that they don't leave any stone unturned (i.e., get the "full picture" of something, so they can come to a reasoned decision), versus blocking off some areas of understanding as unpermissible.

    I know I got to a point where I just didn't trust my parents because of their inherent biases / unwillingness to actually examine things versus just pretending they didn't exist. Even looking back with the hindsight of adulthood, I still see it the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wouldnt say they are fools, just children and teenagers, so they arent adults, they're at a certain stage of maturation and its not fair to have the same expectations of them as any else. Its why children and teenagers, not fools, are not expected to vote, have children of their own, work even or fight wars in most of the developed world.
    When teenagers become 18, they are suddenly allowed to vote, have children, work, and fight. (And of course most kids work part-time jobs in the western world, tbh.) They don't just magically understand how to do that overnight. They are being educated on these topics so that by the time they reach adulthood, they actually know how to responsibly handle it.

    The same deal occurs with other issues. Kids don't just "not engage the world" or live in boxes until they are 18 and suddenly ready for adulthood and capable of being adults. They are being educated from birth by life, and if there is no teacher to teach it (parents or otherwise), they'll just learn whatever they learn on their own. Adults have a responsibility to engage them on issues that they will run into in life, to give them context and provide broad thinking skills so that they can actually reach mature decisions on the matter and then act on them in adulthood and even as children.

    In this case, of course, it's really about more like "Mom, I thought all people were green, but there are actually some orange people out there. Who are they?" And if a parent says, "There are no orange people, you're imagining it," or "We don't talk about orange people, they aren't like us," or even, "Orange people are bad and you should stay far away from them," then now they've contributed to a shaming/ostracizing society if the child accepts the authority outright, or has created a huge rift in the parent/child relationship if the kid hangs out with orange people and comes to the conclusion that there's no real difference between green or orange. (In this way, the adult green society brings about its own decline, by alienating their own children through their unwillingness to address issues.)

    ... treating the LGBT politics in terms of minority-majority relations doesnt sit well with a lot of LGBT activists and their fellow travellers.
    You have extremists in every group. This isn't necessarily the majority. And don't underestimate the reality of the majority contributing to and creating those polarizing attitudes themselves... kind of like what you've been doing here. If you make it into a situation where you're basically dismissing a minority or keeping it in a cage for long enough, and/or even disparaging it and its underpinnings consistently, expect a potentially aggressive response from a portion of that group.

    In my experience, though, the majority of people just wanted to be treated as people rather than as second-class citizens. That's all. And it will take some time for things to settle, even if that legally and socially becomes a reality.
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  9. #59
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    too many absolutes, too many people unwilling to meet in the middle on this issue. no one wants to venture into the grey areas.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    sorry guys, but since you're only 49% of the population we're gonna need to leave out all the guy stuff


    so sex ed isn't gonna cover anything the guys need to know, once again we apologize for the inconvenience
    You joke but unfortunately many people often think this way when they find themselves on the side of any majority. People have a way of forgetting the constitution was written in such a way so as to allow government to function in a manner which should represent the best interests of the majority whilst protecting those of the minority.

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