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  1. #31
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    We never had sex education. We had something called Health in grade 9 that vaguely covered sex but I can't remember a 'single fucking thing' from that class. So I assume the chapter was skipped or we didn't have much lessons taught in it. I got the highest marks in my whole class for that particular lesson. I remember this because that's not an easy thing to accomplish in the school I attended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Still, the thought of gender studies freaks educating my potential future children is very disturbing.
    You are putting a lot of paranoia behind your thoughts. However, if awkwardness and inappropriateness is an issue it's better if it's taught by a strict lecturer.

    'You listen to me and don't ask questions, especially if you think it's kinky.'
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  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    As for the school's involvement, the question arises as to how and where they should get involved: through education, through intervening in bullying and violent acts, and so on. Schools should, of course, be involved with respect to stopping bullying, fights, and threats.

    If we're talking about involvement as education, I'm not sure that getting the facts about LBGTQ out there would mitigate bullying against that group; as the whole shebang also relies upon kids actually taking the facts into account. Kids know that, say, short and scrawny kids shouldn't be pushed around, but that won't stop them from shoving them into garbage cans or throwing raw meat at them. Or making cyber-threats through myspace. Or.. however kids bully nowadays.


    I'd have a much more optimistic tune if there were some studies about how education relates to tolerance on other issues, such as race. I'm hoping that I'm wrong about the influence of facts.

    I feel for 'em. I'd advocate school clubs for these sorts of issues. Black student associations, for example, are a thing. Through some sort of LBGTQ school club, kids can share experiences and get support from other like-minded kids going through the same struggles.
    Let's take the easy part first. Schools are under obligation to intervene or at least report when they suspect a student is suffering abuse or neglect at home, regardless of the cause. They must therefore apply this consistently, whatever the personal opinion of staff on the subject of LGBT issues. Clubs and support groups are fine, but not a substitute for this, legally or ethically.

    Second, schools teach by action and example as much (perhaps more?) than they do through deliberate classroom instruction. Schools need to act as much as possible without bias toward students in all minority groups. This includes the behavior of the teachers and administration, as well as the behavior required of fellow students. Unfortunately schools sometimes make rules and policies that adversely impact minority groups out of ignorance. Once upon a time, even educators thought blacks were less intelligent than whites, and women less able to withstand the "rigors" of academic study than men. They have thought that gays were perverts, that Wiccan or Pagan students were evil satanists, and that students with certain learning disabilities were simply dumb. Now some apparently think that transgendered students are just looking to indulge their voyeuristic tendencies in facilities designed for the "opposite" sex, and that LGBT students are going against God's design for them. And this is just the adults. No doubt some students were raised with similar biases.

    To the extent that these perspectives are the result of ignorance - lack of knowledge - the misconceptions can be dispelled with education. Students can learn the reality of black or female intelligence; the physiology of sexual orientation; what Pagans really believe; or that there are many ways to have and express intelligence. Ignorance breeds fear, and fear leads us often to act out of our baser instincts. Sure, there will still be plenty of bigots who won't be swayed by the facts and will rather cling to their irrational biases. Or, just plain bullies who will use any pretext to pick on those different. Studies have shown that one of the main factors in short-circuiting a bully attempt is bystander intervention. These are the people that education is likely to sway, so they identify more with the victim and will in fact intervene.

    So, how do we teach about differences without getting preachy, or making the problem worse? The same way we teach about other human differences already. We study different nations and cultures in social studies, even different religions. We study different languages. We teach about the suffrage movement and the civil rights movement. We look at changing views on physical illness, mental illness, and learning. In another generation, the gay rights movement will be part of history texts. And so on. In short, we include it where it fits, like everything else, while demonstrating the inclusive and respectful behavior we want to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    So what's involved in that preparation? On which subjects do kids need to be educated in order for them to be 'prepared'? The landscape of 'life' keeps changing, and so too do the answers to those questions. The landscape was certainly different centuries years ago; Jim-Bob Joe-Jacob Adams didn't need to know how to read in order to till the ol' cornfields.
    Perhaps not, but his neighbor Jedediah down the road who did might have had a better and easier time managing his farm. We are not educating children for yesterday, or even today. We need to anticipate the needs of tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    Oh, and teamwork. Collaboration. We're becoming more and more integrated as a society. The world's much less stovepiped, and people don't exist in a vacuum as they once did. People actually have to interact with people of different races and sexual orientations! The horror!

    From that angle, kids need to be taught that people different from themselves actually exist. What does that entail? To what level of specificity does sexual orientation need to be covered? How should it be taught? What are the facts that can be taught? I have to admit that I don't have ready answers to those questions.
    The horror isn't interacting with people who are different; it's simply interacting. Nevermind. Off topic.

    It needs to be taught in the twofold way I described above. (1) Treating all students without bias, so students see that no one is singled out, penalized, or made to feel less worthy because of their differences. (2) Alleviating ignorance so students don't have an unknown to fear, or to make incorrect assumptions about. A knowledge vacuum will be filled - if not by facts, then by rumor, speculation, or misinformation. Unfortunately many families are all too eager to supply this.

    We start by open and casual discussion of topics as they come up. We've all heard stories about the little kid who sees someone in a wheelchair and loudly starts to ask "why is she sitting in that?" while Mom or Dad shushes him in embarrassment. We teach that differences are not embarrassing or wrong by allowing the questions, and respectfully listening to the answers.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I tend to see, as to most liberal proponents of "educating" young people about homosexuality, as its being some attempt to aggressively counter heteronormativity.

    Although the reality is that heteronormativity wasnt ever the consequence of a deliberate political agenda, just an outgrowth of the majority of people being heterosexual and I dont see exactly how it could be anything other than that, who are the villains of the piece for instance? Why would they want to materialise like some evil spirit and impose heterosexuality as the norm? How could such a thing have happened without it making the historical record or going unresisted where it not already the case? Heteronormativity doesnt deserve to be maligned in the fashion it has been, nor do I think it particularly deserves to be challenged or dispensed with.

    I wouldnt really have any problem with education which was simply a recognition or awareness raising exercise with respect of difference and diversity, particularly if it involved some discussion of minority-majority relations, proportionality, reciprocity and societal expectations.

    Experience tells me it wouldnt be limited to that as it wouldnt actually satisfy as adequate any of the people liable to want education in homosexuality in the first place.
    From now on I will count the times you bring up this particular delusion of yours, the gay agenda which intents to homosexualize the world. Since you have brought it up many, many times in the past, the count starts at 40. So, #GayAgenda : 41.
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  4. #34
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I don't think people should be educated on anything.

    They should be thrown into giant death-libraries and if they show an interest in learning for the sake of it, or for some useful purpose (usefulness will be defined and analysed by a team of expert pseudo-intellectuals headed by me) they are allowed to live....in order to have sex. Which will be the one thing that WONT be covered in the library.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  5. #35
    Junior Member headlessredhead's Avatar
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    There's always the possibility of after school programs or clubs (like the GSA) that could help educate the kids who want or need to know. Get parental consent forms and involve parents in it too.
    Schools are platforms to prepare kids for life. Yeah, they're shit at it, but it could help.
    Condemning sex, straight or not, only creates a negative, shameful environment. It leaves questions unanswered, and they may not have the appropriate skills to learn the proper knowledge to keep them safe sexually.
    Ignoring it won't do anything but support ignorance and shame.
    We can't just ignore teenage problems, god knows they're horrible at solving their issues 99% of the time.
    I don't want any left or right ideology to be pushed, I just think that kids should have healthy, positive outlet where they can learn things that could potentially be relevant to them or at least educate them on issues that would be foreign to them. Having empathy isn't bad.
    "If you ever look up into the sky, doubting the existence of other worlds, just know that somewhere, a creature is looking up at it's sky, doubting you." -Night Vale

  6. #36
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by headlessredhead View Post
    There's always the possibility of after school programs or clubs (like the GSA) that could help educate the kids who want or need to know. Get parental consent forms and involve parents in it too.
    The kids who really need to know often don't know that they do. The think they already have the answers, provided by parents who will pull their kids out of school rather than give permission for them to hear about realities different from their own. It's just an extension of the debate about teaching evolution: to what degree are parents allowed to let their kids continue on in ignorance?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The kids who really need to know often don't know that they do. The think they already have the answers, provided by parents who will pull their kids out of school rather than give permission for them to hear about realities different from their own. It's just an extension of the debate about teaching evolution: to what degree are parents allowed to let their kids continue on in ignorance?
    You're treating children as though there were less impressionable and vulnerable to influence than most adults with years of experience and maturation, with respect I cant agree to that, you can be open minded, respectful and tolerant of others without wanting your impressionable children to be schooled in those same others world view, which could be very different or anathema to your own.

    I'm being perfectly fair about this, I dont mind if liberal parents want to pull their children from a class which reflects heteronormativity if they like and confuse them by teaching them that dad and mommy's relationship, what they've known up until then as the norm, may not be the norm because the possible harm would be restricted to the liberal households and there'd hopefully be a majority, not influenced by ideology, who'd be unaffected by it all and able to reproduce sorts of social norms liberals benefit from in others and can spend their time rebelling against.

  8. #38
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To the extent that these perspectives are the result of ignorance - lack of knowledge - the misconceptions can be dispelled with education. Students can learn the reality of black or female intelligence; the physiology of sexual orientation; what Pagans really believe; or that there are many ways to have and express intelligence. Ignorance breeds fear, and fear leads us often to act out of our baser instincts. Sure, there will still be plenty of bigots who won't be swayed by the facts and will rather cling to their irrational biases. Or, just plain bullies who will use any pretext to pick on those different. Studies have shown that one of the main factors in short-circuiting a bully attempt is bystander intervention. These are the people that education is likely to sway, so they identify more with the victim and will in fact intervene.

    So, how do we teach about differences without getting preachy, or making the problem worse? The same way we teach about other human differences already. We study different nations and cultures in social studies, even different religions. We study different languages. We teach about the suffrage movement and the civil rights movement. We look at changing views on physical illness, mental illness, and learning. In another generation, the gay rights movement will be part of history texts. And so on. In short, we include it where it fits, like everything else, while demonstrating the inclusive and respectful behavior we want to see.
    That this captures the general solution pretty nicely. We've been able to dispel many misconceptions about, say, the abilities and dispositions of women; often through education; and so why not sexual orientation and gender identity? Facts are facts. They lead to good decisions. They contribute to the framework upon which we can build our ideas and hypotheses. They make everyone happy (but they might piss 'em off first).

    The question that bounds all around in my head, then, is not whether it should be done; but -- can do it now? Our current thinking is going to be thought of as -- "haha, people back then really thought that way!?" But I'm reminded of the infamous Scopes trial, where Tennessee really didn't want that dude indoctrinating kids with all this dad-gummed evolution monkey talk; Galileo getting his ass outright killed for promoting heliocentrism; and so on. Those folks turned out to be right; and, fortunately, the public was eventually ready for it; but it did take a while.

    Teaching about, say, the civil rights movement (and the capabilities and successes of blacks, etc.) during the middle of the civil rights movement would also have been akin to lobbing a grenade into the whole shebang. The public would likely have not heard the message; the zeitgeist wasn't there.

    Another question I'm mulling over, then, is -- how we can get the public ready? Can we simply shove the facts out there continually until they're accepted? Do we need to wait for a cultural shift?

    We are not educating children for yesterday, or even today. We need to anticipate the needs of tomorrow.
    Of course; in order to be prepared for life, kids should be prepared for what's going to hit them. Some of tomorrow's needs are pretty apparent; some aren't. Technology and gender issues are among those that are pretty apparent and that we need to be able to deal with.

    Perhaps not, but his neighbor Jedediah down the road who did might have had a better and easier time managing his farm.
    (Could be the case. Some knowledge/skills are more transferable than others. Jedediah might have a copy of the almanac, and his book learnin' could have been an advantage.

    But math? Yeah. Even back in that day, Asian farmers did have to be pretty good at math and logistics in order to manage their rice fields because resources were more scarce and those crops needed constant attention.)
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You're treating children as though there were less impressionable and vulnerable to influence than most adults with years of experience and maturation, with respect I cant agree to that, you can be open minded, respectful and tolerant of others without wanting your impressionable children to be schooled in those same others world view, which could be very different or anathema to your own.

    I'm being perfectly fair about this, I dont mind if liberal parents want to pull their children from a class which reflects heteronormativity if they like and confuse them by teaching them that dad and mommy's relationship, what they've known up until then as the norm, may not be the norm because the possible harm would be restricted to the liberal households and there'd hopefully be a majority, not influenced by ideology, who'd be unaffected by it all and able to reproduce sorts of social norms liberals benefit from in others and can spend their time rebelling against.
    #GayAgenda: 42.
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  10. #40
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    This MUST be the answer then!
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