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  1. #21
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well I guess liberals wont be able to pose as free thinking resisters of brainwashing so there's a silver lining, the fight back can begin.

    Thinks get worse before they get better.
    As if a liberals goal is to appear as a free thinking morally superior asshole. Some might, but the good ones surely do not, and the reasonable ones don't give a damn about that label. The only reason you think teaching people about homosexuality and the fact that there isn't thing wrong with it is brainwashing, is because you completely disagree with that notion. News flash: There isn't anything wrong with it. Brainwashing is when you try to teach something to someone that is wrong to begin with. This isn't, and it doesn't count. Besides, most of the western and modern world doesn't have a problem with it, in particular to the level that you do. Fight it all you want, it'll be a loosing battle, and fighting with the fact that liberals "pose as free thinkers"? Talk about a red herring fight and a waste of energy.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by headlessredhead View Post
    Should we expand sex ed to teach all genders/sexualities? If so, how? If not, then why?
    Opinions anyone?
    In my view sex education should encompass the mechanics of sex and reproduction and also the mechanics of sexually transmitted disease. The rest, is sexual preference and isn't a classroom discussion. I thought the idea of sex education is so that people don't stumble into adulthood completely ignorant of how disease is transmitted and how babies are made. The religious/moral/preferences stance doesn't need to come into providing that basic education and can dealt with through more positive avenues designed to cater to the individual's preferences and identity.

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    If I were the President of All Education, I'd move the line even further back. Teaching health is fine, but the whole sex ed thing should be left up to the parents anyway. Adding gender identity issues to the class curriculum would be tossing a grenade into the whole shebang. (Of course, gender identity has something to do with sex, and that sex has something to do with health.. but the line is drawn somewhere.)

    LBGTQ issues are very important, especially around sex ed's target age; but I don't think that it's the school's place to be directly involved. They could perhaps refer students (and parents) to other resources on the issue, such as support groups and literature.
    The school must be involved as long as such students are in their midst and potentially (1) subject to bullying or even violence due to their differences; or (2) subject to neglect or even abuse at home because of who they are. The whole point of public education is that we cannot leave education up to parents as a rule because not all of them will have the wherewithal or inclination to discharge the responsibility. 100 years ago, parents kept kids out of school to help with chores. Now, it is to keep kids from learning about people different from themselves.

    At minimum, and perhaps at best, schools need to teach the facts as objectively and neutrally as possible, at an age-appropriate level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well that's alright man, compell you the kids to learn about homosexuality. We'll see how it turns out.
    Why wouldn't we teach kids about homosexuality? We teach them about races, cultures, religions, disabilities, and the other things that make people different one from another. The large majority will probably always be those little girls who someday want a boyfriend, and little boys who will someday date the girls. But each one of them is all but guaranteed to grow up to know people who are inclined the other way. That's as much a fact of life as the customary "birds and bees". Heck, most of them probably know some of "those folks" already.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The school must be involved as long as such students are in their midst and potentially (1) subject to bullying or even violence due to their differences; or (2) subject to neglect or even abuse at home because of who they are. The whole point of public education is that we cannot leave education up to parents as a rule because not all of them will have the wherewithal or inclination to discharge the responsibility. 100 years ago, parents kept kids out of school to help with chores. Now, it is to keep kids from learning about people different from themselves.

    At minimum, and perhaps at best, schools need to teach the facts as objectively and neutrally as possible, at an age-appropriate level.


    Why wouldn't we teach kids about homosexuality? We teach them about races, cultures, religions, disabilities, and the other things that make people different one from another. The large majority will probably always be those little girls who someday want a boyfriend, and little boys who will someday date the girls. But each one of them is all but guaranteed to grow up to know people who are inclined the other way. That's as much a fact of life as the customary "birds and bees". Heck, most of them probably know some of "those folks" already.
    I tend to see, as to most liberal proponents of "educating" young people about homosexuality, as its being some attempt to aggressively counter heteronormativity.

    Although the reality is that heteronormativity wasnt ever the consequence of a deliberate political agenda, just an outgrowth of the majority of people being heterosexual and I dont see exactly how it could be anything other than that, who are the villains of the piece for instance? Why would they want to materialise like some evil spirit and impose heterosexuality as the norm? How could such a thing have happened without it making the historical record or going unresisted where it not already the case? Heteronormativity doesnt deserve to be maligned in the fashion it has been, nor do I think it particularly deserves to be challenged or dispensed with.

    I wouldnt really have any problem with education which was simply a recognition or awareness raising exercise with respect of difference and diversity, particularly if it involved some discussion of minority-majority relations, proportionality, reciprocity and societal expectations.

    Experience tells me it wouldnt be limited to that as it wouldnt actually satisfy as adequate any of the people liable to want education in homosexuality in the first place.

  5. #25
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I tend to see, as to most liberal proponents of "educating" young people about homosexuality, as its being some attempt to aggressively counter heteronormativity.
    So is teaching about black or Asian people an aggressive attempt to counter the presence of whites? Or is teaching about disabilities somehow going against those who are physically and mentally able?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Although the reality is that heteronormativity wasnt ever the consequence of a deliberate political agenda, just an outgrowth of the majority of people being heterosexual and I dont see exactly how it could be anything other than that, who are the villains of the piece for instance? Why would they want to materialise like some evil spirit and impose heterosexuality as the norm? How could such a thing have happened without it making the historical record or going unresisted where it not already the case? Heteronormativity doesnt deserve to be maligned in the fashion it has been, nor do I think it particularly deserves to be challenged or dispensed with.
    If there are villains, they are those who want to associate being in the minority, whatever that is, with being "bad", "wrong", or even "evil". Explaining how things are (objective, verifiable facts) is not the same as claiming that is how it should be (moral/value judgment). Saying heterosexuals should be a large majority makes about as much sense as saying Earth should have gravity, or there should be nine planets in the solar system. Some things just are, and we do best by understanding how and why they are.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  6. #26
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I fear the teachers would use this opportunity to put leftist crap in the brains of the youth.

    I agree in principle, tho

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I fear the teachers would use this opportunity to put leftist crap in the brains of the youth.
    Oh, come on, dude. Some teachers have been using the schools to put crap into students' brains for a long time -- left, right, and whatever else they happen to favor. There are regions of US schools governed by right-wing craziness (hey, there, parts of Kansas and Texas, etc!) So that's a lousy argument.

    Have a curriculum that teaches just enough to prevent bullying and public shaming, so that students can find some self-acceptance and know where to go to get whatever help they need; and just make sure the programs are reviewed periodically to prevent any shenanigans.
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  8. #28
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I fear the teachers would use this opportunity to put leftist crap in the brains of the youth.
    That would indeed be terrible, especially when there is so much leftist good stuff.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  9. #29
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The school must be involved as long as such students are in their midst and potentially (1) subject to bullying or even violence due to their differences;
    As for the school's involvement, the question arises as to how and where they should get involved: through education, through intervening in bullying and violent acts, and so on. Schools should, of course, be involved with respect to stopping bullying, fights, and threats.

    If we're talking about involvement as education, I'm not sure that getting the facts about LBGTQ out there would mitigate bullying against that group; as the whole shebang also relies upon kids actually taking the facts into account. Kids know that, say, short and scrawny kids shouldn't be pushed around, but that won't stop them from shoving them into garbage cans or throwing raw meat at them. Or making cyber-threats through myspace. Or.. however kids bully nowadays.

    I'd have a much more optimistic tune if there were some studies about how education relates to tolerance on other issues, such as race. I'm hoping that I'm wrong about the influence of facts.
    or (2) subject to neglect or even abuse at home because of who they are.
    I feel for 'em. I'd advocate school clubs for these sorts of issues. Black student associations, for example, are a thing. Through some sort of LBGTQ school club, kids can share experiences and get support from other like-minded kids going through the same struggles.
    The whole point of public education is that we cannot leave education up to parents as a rule because not all of them will have the wherewithal or inclination to discharge the responsibility. 100 years ago, parents kept kids out of school to help with chores. Now, it is to keep kids from learning about people different from themselves.
    Education's great. I love education. We've gotta do a better job of it overall.

    Education toward what end, though? The primary goal of the education in the first place, as I see it, is to provide the resources to prepare kids for life in general.

    So what's involved in that preparation? On which subjects do kids need to be educated in order for them to be 'prepared'? The landscape of 'life' keeps changing, and so too do the answers to those questions. The landscape was certainly different centuries years ago; Jim-Bob Joe-Jacob Adams didn't need to know how to read in order to till the ol' cornfields.

    'Course, knowledge in subjects such as literacy and basic math are absolutely required in order to navigate our world; and that's been true for 100+ years. And nowadays, kids need to know how to use technology at a basic level in order to survive at all.

    Oh, and teamwork. Collaboration. We're becoming more and more integrated as a society. The world's much less stovepiped, and people don't exist in a vacuum as they once did. People actually have to interact with people of different races and sexual orientations! The horror!

    From that angle, kids need to be taught that people different from themselves actually exist. What does that entail? To what level of specificity does sexual orientation need to be covered? How should it be taught? What are the facts that can be taught? I have to admit that I don't have ready answers to those questions.
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  10. #30
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, come on, dude. Some teachers have been using the schools to put crap into students' brains for a long time -- left, right, and whatever else they happen to favor. There are regions of US schools governed by right-wing craziness (hey, there, parts of Kansas and Texas, etc!)
    Being a foreigner, I'll trust you on that.

    So that's a lousy argument.
    Still, the thought of gender studies freaks educating my potential future children is very disturbing.

    I'd disown them as soon as they start with the patriarchy/privilege talk.

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