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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Spree killing and the french atrocities

    I was wondering if anyone has thought about the possible links between the phenomenon of spree killings in the US, stuff like Columbine, and atrocities like those carried out recently in France?

    I wonder about the underlying character structures or motivations of those responsible, the reason being that they released pictures from a documentary featuring one of the perpetrators and he honestly looked much more modern day hip hop or Eminem than he looked traditional muslim or mujaheddin, I'm maybe underestimating the diversity of the global political islamist struggle but that's what I'm pretty sure I saw and calling it exactly how I did see it.

    There may be differences in that one is seemingly more random than the other, the second is much less vague about its choosen pretexts for murder, ie perceived slights and grievances against their communal identity, but I would suggest that all that is different is that there are more likely to be masters of puppets involved in the atrocities in france, setting it up or prompting the action, not that it appears to need a lot of prompting.

    I suspect the character structures are the same, some of the subcultural contexts broadly similar too and I think if these things have the same origins and genesis its not necessarily something that equality and respect campaigns or in depth analysis is going to remedy.

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    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I was wondering if anyone has thought about the possible links between the phenomenon of spree killings in the US, stuff like Columbine, and atrocities like those carried out recently in France?
    I think these incidents in France have almost nothing to do with something like Columbine or Sandy Hook. They have more to do with something like Ferguson or NYC.

    I wonder about the underlying character structures or motivations of those responsible, the reason being that they released pictures from a documentary featuring one of the perpetrators and he honestly looked much more modern day hip hop or Eminem than he looked traditional muslim or mujaheddin, I'm maybe underestimating the diversity of the global political islamist struggle but that's what I'm pretty sure I saw and calling it exactly how I did see it.
    Of course he didn't look like a traditional muslim or mujaheddin. He wasn't born radicalized and that documentary video is over 10 years old. They have explained, more than once, he attended a now demolished mosque, which is how he got started on this path. I'm quite sure you can visualize how a person could be brainwashed and radicalized by a religion and a charismatic leader.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I think these incidents in France have almost nothing to do with something like Columbine or Sandy Hook. They have more to do with something like Ferguson or NYC.
    Why so? That's interesting, my understanding of Ferguson and NYC was that deaths caused by the police had prompted some anti-authoritarian and racist violence, I dont see the relationship to what's happened in France.

    Looking at the preprators themselves rather than simply their offenses is how I reached my conclusions, although I did think about it when I heard more about the American who was amongst Jihads in Afghanistan, I think he was called John Doe at the time, I dont remember exactly.

    Of course he didn't look like a traditional muslim or mujaheddin. He wasn't born radicalized and that documentary video is over 10 years old. They have explained, more than once, he attended a now demolished mosque, which is how he got started on this path. I'm quite sure you can visualize how a person could be brainwashed and radicalized by a religion and a charismatic leader.
    You think there's more of a process involved with the jihadi spree killing?

    I read a good book about the NI troubles called Trigger Men a while ago, it wasnt the best, I liked The Killing Rage better which explains how someone with a legitimate grievance against the authorities and reasonable amount of estrangement or feelings of being an outsider was recruited and pretty much exploited by someone who characterises as more psychopathic personality, they deal with similar things though.

    The former book talks about how during the troubles many events were orchestrated by individuals who could trigger others, with words, symbols or during certain phases of their lives or even times of year. I think there's enough similarities between these recent atrocities and other sorts of spree killing too, I dont know if rationalise or analyse is the right word, them as somehow related.

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    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why so? That's interesting, my understanding of Ferguson and NYC was that deaths caused by the police had prompted some anti-authoritarian and racist violence, I dont see the relationship to what's happened in France.
    The Ferguson and NYC incidents were just the tipping point in decades and decades of racial inequality in the US. The fact that deaths were caused by the police were almost secondary to the real issues blacks have. High unemployment, high percentage of black men that are incarcerated, poor education and housing, lack of opportunity, etc. What I am understanding about Muslims in France is almost the same thing. High unemployment, poor education and housing, lack of opportunity, etc. The fact that one issue is about race and the other is about a religion is almost irrelevant. They have the same grievances and the same complaints with very similar outcomes.
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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    The Ferguson and NYC incidents were just the tipping point in decades and decades of racial inequality in the US. The fact that deaths were caused by the police were almost secondary to the real issues blacks have. High unemployment, high percentage of black men that are incarcerated, poor education and housing, lack of opportunity, etc. What I am understanding about Muslims in France is almost the same thing. High unemployment, poor education and housing, lack of opportunity, etc. The fact that one issue is about race and the other is about a religion is almost irrelevant. They have the same grievances and the same complaints with very similar outcomes.
    Do you think they would see it that way?

    I mean the political islamists, I've heard about them laughing in gitmo and places like that when they have been discussing attempts to combat radicalisation by amelioration of social ills or poor relief.

    I tend to think those things should be tackled, when on remedy is found ineffective or part of the problem, try another, and never simply "just nothing" or "natural consequences" combined with hands off government as the UK conservatives have rebranded "social justice". Although I see that as a different matter to sectarianism and racism.

    Of the sectarianism I've known in my own back yard material deprivation, under development and cultural deprivations have all counted only in so far as they support the seperation of the community into "us and them", ie "they do better, we do worse, we have a grievance", often its strongest felt in precisely the community which has been the historic "top dog".

    Then again not all of the community has ever been "top dog", like your "white trash" in the US is not in the same league as the country club set but they both are liable to be just as racist as one another if they are racist.

    I've also seen how when issues of material deprivation are addressed it doesnt cut into the identity politics in any significant way, not in a beneficent way, those politics morph some how because usually its not a case of "I have this identity, I had it before it resulted in oppression, it'll exist after the oppression disappears" but is a case of "I am oppressed" and the extinction of that oppression or its transcendence is unthinkable or problematic in itself.

    I'm not even talking about any of the usual cliches about a grievance economy or grievance prospecting etc. Although I think its fair to acknowledge that there is coin to made out of those things and some people have done well without it negating the actual, really existing oppression or legacy in any way.

    I've also thought about the rationalisation of "its really poverty" as a bit optimistic, it makes it less random, less mad, and, despite the fact its not easy by any stretch of the imagination, more resolvable or amenable to solution. If it is just a matter of more money and some jobs then grand. Job's a good 'un. Although in my experience that's sort of hopeful. Kind of like the person whose house got knocked over by a couple of crooks imagining its a sort of class struggle playing out in order to depersonalise it and find some meaning in the situation.

    The whole bad guys with an opportunity is a scarier prospect.

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    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Sniping and ensuing side-"discussion" has been moved to Off-Topic Posts, to clear the way for more constructive material.

    Carry on.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sniping and ensuing side-"discussion" has been moved to Off-Topic Posts, to clear the way for more constructive material.

    Carry on.
    I just want to clarify that I didnt request those posts be removed. Just for the record. Not challenging it or anything.

    Thanks.

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