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  1. #11
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    17 is pretty young to want to die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Did she said she wanted to die?

    She just seems unwilling to suffer through the experience of treatment, even if it's almost assured of working.
    most 17 years want to die on some level ime, then they grow more and it passes, which one reason i'm siding with the judge, i wasn't allowed to die at 17 why should she? especially it's not like she'll die 4 years at 21, which might be a fucked up view of the world but i wasn't allowed to die when I wanted to so others can't either unless there is no doubt they're gonna die any ways and an 89% survival rate is not no doubt.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #12
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    It's nice to know there are courts to act in rational best interests when minors are not capable of making those decisions. Gives me faith in society.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    most 17 years want to die on some level ime...
    Weird, I never wanted to die. Not saying you're wrong; my whole life has been unusual in many respects, so maybe I skipped this particular phase and so never thought to press my friends about it.

    Anyhow, like Hard, I think this is very interesting. My first reaction was "Fuck the Connecticut SC, 17 is plenty old enough to choose how one wants to die!" But on the other hand, I can't imagine a rational 17 year old (if such a thing exists) making this decision; and her mother's choice of words ('poison') does imply that she was raised with some nutty beliefs. On the other other hand, she'll be 18 soon enough and may or may not have changed her opinion by then; so the cold and cynical part of me says that maybe it's better that she darwins herself out of the gene pool right now, rather than pollute it later after unwillingly surviving this cancer.

    Regardless of the morality of the court's decision, my guess is that -- assuming the treatment does in fact save this girl -- she feels resentment toward the court and possibly all "Guv'mint stickin' its nose in honest folks' bus'ness!" during the chemo, and probably for a few years afterward. But eventually she'll come to accept it, and finally feel thankful that the court intervened after a few more years go by.

  4. #14
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Weird, I never wanted to die. Not saying you're wrong; my whole life has been unusual in many respects, so maybe I skipped this particular phase and so never thought to press my friends about it.

    Anyhow, like Hard, I think this is very interesting. My first reaction was "Fuck the Connecticut SC, 17 is plenty old enough to choose how one wants to die!" But on the other hand, I can't imagine a rational 17 year old (if such a thing exists) making this decision; and her mother's choice of words ('poison') does imply that she was raised with some nutty beliefs. On the other other hand, she'll be 18 soon enough and may or may not have changed her opinion by then; so the cold and cynical part of me says that maybe it's better that she darwins herself out of the gene pool right now rather than pollute it later after unwillingly surviving this cancer.

    Regardless of the morality of the court's decision, my guess is that -- assuming the treatment does in fact save this girl -- she feels resentment toward the court and possibly all "Guv'mint stickin' its nose in honest folks' bus'ness!" during the chemo, and probably for a few years afterward. But eventually she'll come to accept it, and finally feel thankful that the court intervened after a few more years go by.
    yeah I don't think 17 year and rationality when it comes to decisions like this actually exist, I don't think most adults are capable either but the difference is they're older they have lived and its usually not OMGOMGOMG CHEMOS POISONED AAHHHHH I MUST DIE GARGGLE GARRGGLLEE CHOKE DIE SPLAT! its like fuck i was given a 18% chance of survival from this i've been doing treatment for a long ass time its not doing anything i'm gonna die anyways. I part of me is wondering if it not be a good idea to add a caveat for this law with you can only choose physcian assisted suicide if you're chance of survival is below 40% i know this isn't about that. And I think people should have the right to refuse treatment as long as they fully understand what actually is happening and how it works. Also I would like the age limit be 25 before you can refuse treatment flat out.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #15
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Rights? Let's talk about duties.
    What about this girl's duties to herself? To her friends and family?
    What about the mother's duty to her child?

    If duties had been properly fulfilled there would be no talk about rights and the state wouldn't have to intervene.

    Self-imposed duties make us free... and give us life.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont see why we shouldnt consider this in any way other than it actually is here, euthenasia is about dying, its called assisted killing or assisted dying because that's what it involves.

    I know that the left, which is sympathetic to these things on libertarian/permissive grounds, which I dont entirely understand, has become pretty steeped in the newspeak. A shame since the usually claim Orwell as a icon and all but its how it is.

    Lets call a spade a spade more often and have the courage of our convictions, I think if people want suicide on tap they should have the courage to say so, ask loud and proud, make the case, see what everyone thinks and permit others to make the opposing case, dont qualify it, disguise it or shirk about it and dont limit it to cases of distress which is physical or mental.
    I'm not really sure whether you were referring to me or her or whoever, but don't garble my words if you were referring to them. When I read her opinion, it did not sound like she wanted to die if she had the choice; it sounds like she just hates the idea of the suffering that comes with chemo and hates the idea of someone telling her what to do.

    Which is basically what I said the first time.

    To be honest, at risk of sounding like a jerk, I thought her opinion sounded like a typical teenage, "I'm my own person and all grown up, don't tell me what to do," scree. [I was a teenager once, and I've raised three, so I'm familiar with the attitude.] And yes, she is a teenager, so I guess that's appropriate in some ways; at the same time, I felt like it lacked a larger perspective and with maybe another five years of living under her belt, she might end up with a different view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Rights? Let's talk about duties.
    What about this girl's duties to herself? To her friends and family?
    What about the mother's duty to her child?
    What do you think those duties are and on what basis do they exist?

    (I'm not challenging you, I'm just asking for clarification so I properly understand.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    As a libertarian, I fully support an individual's right to make stupid and even fatal decisions. With minors, that decision should be made by the parents, not by the state. The state should never be trusted with that much power. I see this move as an attempt by the government to protect the profits of the cancer industry.

    There are many alternative treatments that should be explored first such as intravenous Vitamin C, laetrile, antineoplastons, and essiac tea. People should have a right to decide what to put into their bodies. Also, not to stray too far from the topic, but I find it a bit amusing that people who support women's rights (abortion rights) because women should get to decide what to do with their bodies now oppose a woman's right to decide what to do with her body. Make up your mind.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    yeah I don't think 17 year and rationality when it comes to decisions like this actually exist, I don't think most adults are capable either but the difference is they're older they have lived and its usually not OMGOMGOMG CHEMOS POISONED AAHHHHH I MUST DIE GARGGLE GARRGGLLEE CHOKE DIE SPLAT!
    I have my doubts about most adults too.

    In any case, the legal age of majority is fairly arbitrary isn't it? "Well you've [presumably] gotten 13 years of enlightening education and gone through the emotional scarring of puberty without killing yourself, so congrats you're an adult now go boost the economy." ("But oh wait, we don't want you drinking for another three years!" ) It'd be nice if there were a convenient plateau in brain development that we could base legal adulthood on, but I don't think there is one -- although who knows? I'm not a childhood development expert or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    ...its like fuck i was given a 18% chance of survival from this i've been doing treatment for a long ass time its not doing anything i'm gonna die anyways. I part of me is wondering if it not be a good idea to add a caveat for this law with you can only choose physcian assisted suicide if you're chance of survival is below 40% i know this isn't about that. And I think people should have the right to refuse treatment as long as they fully understand what actually is happening and how it works. Also I would like the age limit be 25 before you can refuse treatment flat out.
    If anything, I'd go the other way. As much as agreeing with Tellenbach makes me uncomfortable, telling people what they can do with their own bodies makes me even more so. There are always corner cases of course, but as a general rule I'd rather err on the side of letting people make their own decisions, so long as they're not hurting others.

  9. #19
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (What's the experience of endgame lymphoma, if she wants to discuss quality of life? I'm not sure her quality of life would be so hot when she's in the throes of stage 4 cancer, and especially if she then changed her mind but would die knowing she could have lived. I mean, that's pretty... severe... to not get a shorter-term almost-assured treatement. And we're also discussing a significant quantity of life versus a very short lack of quality in comparison -- it's not like she's 60 and might die within ten years anyway, it's likely without a cancer recurrence that she could triple/quadruple her current lifespan, if not longer.)
    This.

    Doesn't sound like she has thought things through properly. They should schedule a visit for her to see stage 4 cancer patients.
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  10. #20
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Teenagers actually think with their hippocampus instead of their frontal lobes. The hippocampus is in charge of fight or flight rationals and impulse behavior.

    It's not that she wants to die, its that she most likely has not reached a level of cognitive reasoning to make a well thought out choice.

    Choosing to not seek treatment for something that has a high survival rate is a very big choice, and since she is that young, I can see why the courts stepped in.

    On a personal level I feel conflicted on the right to die subjects, but I don't think those types of internal struggles are important to this scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.
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