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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Algora J View Post
    I don't think McCain will be much a candidate to beat for Obama. If Romney had been the Republican choice, then he would've had a formidable opponent.
    I couldn't disagree more. The whole reason Gore had any chance in 2000 is because Bush beat McCain in the primaries. Independents liked McCain more than Bush, but not the registered republicans. You could say the democrats could've come up with a better candidate as well; you'd probably be right.

    I was afraid Romney would win the Rep. nomination for this reason.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Algora J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. The whole reason Gore had any chance in 2000 is because Bush beat McCain in the primaries. Independents liked McCain more than Bush, but not the registered republicans. You could say the democrats could've come up with a better candidate as well; you'd probably be right.

    I was afraid Romney would win the Rep. nomination for this reason.
    Let's not underestimate George W.'s charisma. He was the popular choice then because of his extensive PR campaign as a man who got gentleman C's at Harvard and his clean cut Southern boy next door persona. Gore was the best Democratic choice at that time and technically should've been President. However the way Naomi Wolf had unsuccessfully portrayed him as a Beta male, when Gore should've lived up his Alpha image was a little disingenuous.

    Independents no longer view McCain in the same light since he has joined forces with the neo-cons. If anything Independents now, in the present, 2008, would be more likely to vote for Romney than for McCain. Obama doesn't really have a formidable opponent. He could choose Mickey Mouse as his running mate and still win.

  3. #23
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Well, I thought the first part was pretty self-explanatory, but okay. Obama (and many of his supporters) try to project this image that he's going to change everything, because he's got all this "hope" and stuff, but lots of politicians have used that crap to try to get elected, and if you actually examine what they actually DO in terms of policy decisions, it's really rare that it doesn't follow the status quo in most areas.

    As for the second part, I have seen enough of the way politics goes to see trends and patterns for elections. Because of the electoral college, McCain doesn't have to focus on being loved by everybody, he only has to figure out tactically which states to focus on getting the vote out of the people that are gonna vote for him for whatever reason (whether it's "he's a war hero", "I like his tie", "I think his wife is hot" or something more important like "His daughter is hot.") McCain has demonstrated the ability to appeal to many more independent and non-partisan voters than Bush did, and Bush won twice. McCain's people have less work to do, because he has a much longer, more established record, and polls have shown the people who make up their mind at the last minute (i.e. not the folks who are hardcore politics honks) tend to vote for the candidate that they know better/has more experience/trust/feel more comfortable with. So, Obama has a lot more work to do to convince people in states that Bush won (and a few he didn't win that McCain has a shot in, like Minnesota especially if he picks Pawlenty for VP) that they can put aside any uneasiness they have about him for any reason (whether it's his lack of experience, his lack of concrete policy positions, or because they're just big effin racists who ain't gonna vote for that "colored" guy.)

    So I'm not talking about the quality of their actual policies at all. In fact, I doubt more than 2 percent of the people who will vote for either can name more than 2 policy proposals that either of them have. People are stupid and aren't paying attention, they say stuff like "Obama's for the poor" or "McCain's a maverick" and when you actually push them for details, they don't have a clue, they just know slogans and empty rhetoric.

    So, can you understand what I'm saying now even if you don't agree?


    By the way, protean, not trying to derail your thread, cafe just touched on a nerve with me, and if she was an idiot, like a lot of people, then I wouldn't have bothered, but because she's obviously an intelligent, caring woman, it bothered me to hear the kool-aid come spitting out of her mouth and getting red stains on the topic's carpet.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Well, I thought the first part was pretty self-explanatory, but okay. Obama (and many of his supporters) try to project this image that he's going to change everything, because he's got all this "hope" and stuff, but lots of politicians have used that crap to try to get elected, and if you actually examine what they actually DO in terms of policy decisions, it's really rare that it doesn't follow the status quo in most areas.

    As for the second part, I have seen enough of the way politics goes to see trends and patterns for elections. Because of the electoral college, McCain doesn't have to focus on being loved by everybody, he only has to figure out tactically which states to focus on getting the vote out of the people that are gonna vote for him for whatever reason (whether it's "he's a war hero", "I like his tie", "I think his wife is hot" or something more important like "His daughter is hot.") McCain has demonstrated the ability to appeal to many more independent and non-partisan voters than Bush did, and Bush won twice. McCain's people have less work to do, because he has a much longer, more established record, and polls have shown the people who make up their mind at the last minute (i.e. not the folks who are hardcore politics honks) tend to vote for the candidate that they know better/has more experience/trust/feel more comfortable with. So, Obama has a lot more work to do to convince people in states that Bush won (and a few he didn't win that McCain has a shot in, like Minnesota especially if he picks Pawlenty for VP) that they can put aside any uneasiness they have about him for any reason (whether it's his lack of experience, his lack of concrete policy positions, or because they're just big effin racists who ain't gonna vote for that "colored" guy.)

    So I'm not talking about the quality of their actual policies at all. In fact, I doubt more than 2 percent of the people who will vote for either can name more than 2 policy proposals that either of them have. People are stupid and aren't paying attention, they say stuff like "Obama's for the poor" or "McCain's a maverick" and when you actually push them for details, they don't have a clue, they just know slogans and empty rhetoric.

    So, can you understand what I'm saying now even if you don't agree?


    By the way, protean, not trying to derail your thread, cafe just touched on a nerve with me, and if she was an idiot, like a lot of people, then I wouldn't have bothered, but because she's obviously an intelligent, caring woman, it bothered me to hear the kool-aid come spitting out of her mouth and getting red stains on the topic's carpet.
    Yeah, I see what you're saying and it makes sense, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I was saying.


    I think you are reading a lot of something into my words that isn't really there. I'm actually pretty cynical and ambivalent about the whole thing. I think McCain is a rich scumbag that has no earthly idea of what people like me are concerned about.

    I think I am unhappy with the direction the country has taken under Bush and feel like duped idiot for having voted for him (twice ). I don't believe most of the Republicans in office lose a fraction of a second of sleep over abortion or have any intention of reducing it, let along stopping it, at least as long as there are plenty of undocumented Mexicans in this country to exploit. To put it bluntly, I don't think they want poor people having babies that may place an added burden on our assistance programs and take tax dollars away from cash cows like defense.

    I would not be the tiniest little bit surprised if, should Obama win, he turns out to be a fraud, incompetent, or unable to actually implement the ideas he's talked about (like virtually all other politicians). All he really has going for him, IMO, is he at least has a speech writer that knows what I'm worried about and he has a nice persona (actually reminds me of my brother). I might have considered voting for Huckabee or Paul if they'd had a chance.

    Anyway, call that Koolaid if you like, but remember I'm GenX. I drink my Koolaid without the sugar.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #25
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    I can totally dig all of that. And even though I don't agree with you about the direction under Bush, I respect that you are examining things a little more closely than some people do.

    The part about the actual outcome of the election really didn't have anything to do with what you were saying, I just connected it as one long string of predictable and usual things in politics. My main overall point was just that I thought you were mischaracterizing the campaign as being "ugly/muddy" on McCain's part and not on Obama's.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Algora J View Post
    Obama doesn't really have a formidable opponent. He could choose Mickey Mouse as his running mate and still win.
    I so hope you're wrong. The latest registered voter polls I've heard about have McCain and Obama about even, so I'm holding on to optimism for the time being.

  7. #27
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I can totally dig all of that. And even though I don't agree with you about the direction under Bush, I respect that you are examining things a little more closely than some people do.

    The part about the actual outcome of the election really didn't have anything to do with what you were saying, I just connected it as one long string of predictable and usual things in politics. My main overall point was just that I thought you were mischaracterizing the campaign as being "ugly/muddy" on McCain's part and not on Obama's.
    I said he was trying to avoid the appearance of running a negative campaign and that is why he is being so apologetic.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #28
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    They're politicians and they're all shady. I am voting for Obama because I like change (CHANGE IS NOT ALWAYS BAD PEOPLE) and think a new perspective is always good. My ISFJ mother wouldn't hear of voting for Obama so whatever the republicans can dig up (truth or fiction) she will totally buy it all as will SJ (my opinionated idiotic neighbor) and my good ESFJ friend Pam oh yeah and my gym partner and former ESfJ neighbor Debbie and all of my hillbilly relatives in GA and my ISFP Aunt and my ESTJ uncle. I really need to stop.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  9. #29
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    I am voting for Obama because I like change
    Hey, that's fine, as long as you don't try to pretend that's any more substantive than "I'd like to live in Obama's pants."
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  10. #30
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    ^ I'm curious as to what you think our country needs and what your views on how the rest of the world view us. Put your money where your pants are.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

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