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  1. #141
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    Women in Islam (or perhaps, the Arabian culture) needs a thread of its own.
    I have started a new thread on the topic of Women in Islam. Please continue this part of the discussion there. It is a worthwhile topic and merits its own attention, but has become a derail here. I did not move any posts from the present thread, so feel free to quote from here in the new thread.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #142
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'd prefer the specifics rather than verses about the environment. In exegesis you typically want to start with the specific verses and then go to the generic principles, not the other way around.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hadith records the sanctioning of the killing of apostates by Muhammad. Because of this there are still many Muslims and many countries that follow this tradition. My own tradition has a number of leaders that committed genocide at the request of God and I have very specific reasons why I don't don't believe that's a basis for modern law and there is no modern Christian country that disagrees with me. I want to know what your specific reasons are for not continuing these practices by Muhammad or whether or not you believe that he did them. I'm not interested in generic appeals to justice and goodness.
    Correction:
    -Islam is not an arabic thing to be a tradition, it’s for the arabic nation, and you shouldn’t convert into an Arab to be a muslim.
    -Allah had ordered to fight back.
    -No genocide happened, don’t make me talk about christianity.

    I didn’t get what you’re asking for, Quran is the word of Allah the strongest law the basic the foundation the top.
    It’s words must be obeyed directly and right away, so what reasons beyond that?
    These are laws to be followed, I feel sorry why some muslims don’t follow.
    I’m not asking you to believe it, I’m telling you what it is.
    Basically the name of Islam has peace as one of it’s meanings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    How patronizing and almost proselytizing like. Islam IS a religion. Period. There is no argument or discussion there at all. Sharia law comes from Islam, the vast majority of it throughout the world is from the mindset of enforcing adherence to Islam. Not everyone agrees with Islam, and that is the problem. For example, I am atheist, and I am for the reason that there is no reasonable or credible evidence towards any religious or spiritual belief system. As such, I feel nor see no reason to put stock into something that is unsupportable. I further do not agree with sharia law. I see it as archaic and backwards in many respects, and secular law as far superior to it. Of which is used much more commonly throughout the world because it has supportable basis to it. Sharia dictates how individuals are supposed to live their lives in ways that do not effect others around them. It's a moral police which is flat not acceptable as morals that do not harm others are to be the decision of the individual.

    You want others to live and adhere to the values of your religion even though many people do not share or agree with. That is not how the world should work, and is WILDLY unfair.
    Excuse me due to my poor english I could not understand the first paragraph well.
    However, it’s you opinion, I respect, but as for the second one, Sharia gives you freedom to believe, in fact, ..
    It’s forbidden to be forced into anything at all.
    But even the wild has rules, nature has rules, the rules we’re all familiar with be good, you get reward, be bad, you’ll lose and get punished.
    Sharia is the system we all can get our rights under it’s running, that’s why many people with seculars beliefs, in Turkey e.g. vote for the Islamic party in the parliament.
    Why?
    “Because it provides us the rights we want.”

    I don’t like to enter politics, but this was just an example, perhaps you need to look at Sharia with an open mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    @Mademoiselle

    Ftr, I don't doubt your position is genuinely held or that it is indeed the way you were brought up to believe as I understand that your home country (if I remember it correctly) does not criminalize apostasy (though it would not surprise me if people in rural areas took matters into their own hands without accountability).

    I'm genuinely interested in hearing you explain the differences between your faith and that of other Muslims.
    I’m urban, .. there are not villages in my country anymore, they’re all murdered and destroyed.
    There are only sub-urban “places” for the remains of us to live.
    However I’m -INTJ- too skeptical to believe in something or to do something just because my parents do.
    I mean I had looked and thought about Islam more than you, even I’m born with, I had reached this conclusions after thousands of questions.
    I’m faithful muslim, thankfully, I’m imperfect, there are billions of billions more faithful people out there than me, ..
    In fact most muslims are faithful and educated enough to actually follow Islam instead of -with all my respect- blindly and deafly try to apply a mistranslated word of Quran in very barbaric way very far form the brilliant Islam.
    The Islam that lighted muslim minds thought the years to raise such scientists that …. and … and …. and ….
    I had offered various sources to satisfy your concerns.
    Now look at the “barbaric” nation Arabs were called before Islam and what they achieved after that, look how impressive they’d become when they let Islam rule them.
    That’s only because they were memorising Quran which has another benefit of shaping your brain, tuning you, many people had converted to muslims just by hearing Quran read.
    It’s not magic, it’s is the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eska View Post
    Define Sharia.
    Define Islam.
    Define Religion.

    If your statement is literal and non-metaphorical, you are incorrect.
    Beautiful.
    Although the argument is still fine with these:
    Islam
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia”]Islamic Sharia[/URL]
    Religion

    Islam is not just a religion it’s a way of life, it’s a complete perfect lifestyle.
    And the religion of Islam is defined as a monotheistic faith, Allah is the creator and the controller of existence, who sent prophets to acknowledge that fact, each to a specific nation/s in a specific age, all with the same massage, to educate humans, and knowledge the right path.
    The last prophet is Muhammad (PBUH), it’s code is Shahada:
    “the Muslim profession of faith (“there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”).”
    So the straight path is shown, the truth is learnt, you choose to follow and get reward or to disobey and get punished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suspect much within Sharia is culturally based, as are the various interpretations of Islam.

    I suggest YOU think about it more. You may be too close to see things clearly. I tend to be one of the most vocal defenders of Islam on this forum, but that is in spite of the backwardness and inequality of many interpretations of Islam, not because of it.

    Sharia is not actually culture based, sadly it’s how it’s incorrectly misunderstood by even some muslims sometimes.
    Give me evidence, we’re talking about facts.
    And I’m not an Islam defender because of my personal beliefs.
    I seek justice and fairness and what’s right absolute from emotions and stupid reasons like impressions or unrelated personal matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Actually I forgot to add to the post you quoted that I've heard the Quran advices its followers to integrate into the societies they live in and that women aren't supposed to cover themselves when living in such communities.

    I think the biggest issue Muslims have is their inability to integrate into the communities they live in and instead of trying respecting those cultures and traditions they shun it, claim they are not Islamic and try to impose their own cultures and laws (Sharia) into these societies. Islam not only has its own religion it also has its own culture. So accepting some other culture or refusing to live according to your culture (which is mostly arabic) means you are going against your religion.

    However, the Quran advices its followers to integrate. Not so sure about it though. Maybe @Mademoiselle could clear things for us.

    Islam tells you to do what’s right and adopt what’s right, if it’s culture or anything else, it doesn’t matter.
    Get rid of all the bad acts and all the things are harming:
    1-you
    2-your family
    3-your friends
    4-your neighbours
    5-your relatives in:
    *religion
    *blood (lol couldn’t find a better way ti explain this)
    *nationality
    *land
    *humanity
    *living things
    *non living things

    It’s about priority and classes.
    Remember what made the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) on top of the world in class is his manners towards all and not just his faith, you see there are many faithful people.

    If I’m not clear yet in my point, it’s not fighting anything, it’s fighting all the bad and negative starting form yourself until being a good example for the global community to follow by showing them what’s good.

    And lastly women covering themselves like they’re not naked, and yes it’s up to the community.
    In Arabs it’s a tradition to fully cover yourself, it’s fine you can do, but the bad tradition to be naked like an ancient Arabian dancer.
    See?
    Adopt good traditions and get rid of bad ones.
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  3. #143
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    Excuse me due to my poor english I could not understand the first paragraph well.
    However, it’s you opinion, I respect, but as for the second one, Sharia gives you freedom to believe, in fact, ..
    It’s forbidden to be forced into anything at all.
    But even the wild has rules, nature has rules, the rules we’re all familiar with be good, you get reward, be bad, you’ll lose and get punished.
    If you are unable to understand my paragraph then there is little point in discussing this with you for that, and how incredibly stubborn/set in your ways and utterly blind you are. Others have pointed out how blind you are to this as well. Maybe Sharia gives you freedom to believe, but it does not give you freedom to be as you want and behave as you want. It's extremely restrictive to ways of life. In particular to those who do not practice or agree with Islam (see my comments below).

    You say it's forbidden to be forced into anything. Fine, but that's certainly not what actually happens, and that's actually irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    Sharia is the system we all can get our rights under it’s running, that’s why many people with seculars beliefs, in Turkey e.g. vote for the Islamic party in the parliament.
    Why?
    “Because it provides us the rights we want.”

    I don’t like to enter politics, but this was just an example, perhaps you need to look at Sharia with an open mind.
    NO. Absolutely not in every way possible. This is incorrect in every which way possible. We can even objectively prove that it's untrue if we look at something like the human rights index. Look at all of the countries throughout the world that have high ratings of human rights that do not have sharia law. Also, look at the countries that do have it, and how much more significantly lower their human rights are. In practice, this is what happens, and it is a problem. I will say it plainly: Sharia law is unfair, unbalanced, religiously influenced, and DOES NOT promote human rights or fair law. YOU'RE the one that needs to look at this from a "fair open mind". As I already said, it shouldn't even be used because not everyone agrees with Islam and should not nor can not be subjected to it's rules. It's objectively unfair in every way possible.

    And incidentally, the majority of those in Turkey are in fact, Muslim. A staggering majority in fact, at about 99%. Your example holds no weight at all. Of course it's the rights they want, most people are Muslim. Also, lets not forget that the coming to power of religiously influenced parties in Turkey was met with heavy disagreement and protest. Particularly from the youth of Turkey.

    I get the impression that you simply want Sharia Law to be this idealized utopia of how things should be, and ultimately make everyone happy and live the best virtuous lives they can. It might look great on paper, but in practice it's SO far from the truth. It's a good parallel to communism actually. An idea that looks great and idealized on paper. In practice though? Utter disaster. You desperately need to take off the rose colored glasses, stop viewing this as how you want it to be, and view it as how it actually is in the real world.
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  4. #144
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    Yes, Mr. Biden I agree with you but speaking about that verse you brought it from the Noble Quran, it's talking about the day of judgment and how the disbelievers ,who never believed in God , will face their fate.

  5. #145
    Member Eska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    Beautiful.
    Although the argument is still fine with these:
    Islam
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia”]Islamic Sharia[/URL]
    Religion

    Islam is not just a religion it’s a way of life, it’s a complete perfect lifestyle.
    And the religion of Islam is defined as a monotheistic faith, Allah is the creator and the controller of existence, who sent prophets to acknowledge that fact, each to a specific nation/s in a specific age, all with the same massage, to educate humans, and knowledge the right path.
    The last prophet is Muhammad (PBUH), it’s code is Shahada:
    “the Muslim profession of faith (“there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”).”
    So the straight path is shown, the truth is learnt, you choose to follow and get reward or to disobey and get punished.
    You've proved my point.

    Islam is a religion, nothing else.

    You can live your life in accordance to the scripture, although, it is nonsensical to claim that 'Islam is a way of life, it's a complete perfect lifestyle'.

    You can base the major part of your reasoning and day-to-day decisions on the scripture's teachings, although, that does not mean that Islam is a lifestyle in itself, it is a scripture from where you withdraw your values.

    You could say "I live in accordance to the Quran's teachings, it is part of my lifestyle.", although, it is nonsensical to say "Islam is a lifestyle.".

    Being a practicing Muslim can be part of your lifestyle, but Islam is not a lifestyle, Islam is a religion that has a particular scripture.

    That would be like saying; "A banana is a banana cake."
    Of course not, the banana is used in order to make the banana cake, but that doesn't make it the cake itself.
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  6. #146
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mostasa View Post
    Yes, Mr. Biden I agree with you but speaking about that verse you brought it from the Noble Quran, it's talking about the day of judgment and how the disbelievers ,who never believed in God , will face their fate.
    You mean @Beorn?

    This is slightly off topic, but it's something that's always baffled me. In several religious and spiritual contexts, it's said that those who never believe in god, or simply do not, will face their fate, eternal damnation, etc. I just, I just don't get it. How is not believing in something worthy of unfathomable extreme punishment? It is probably the most benign of things to do on ones life. Not believing is a personal and individual thought that does not extend beyond themselves, and doesn't impact anyone else. I.e. it's not the least bit harmful. And yet, having that most harmless of thoughts leads to the most harmful of impacts. There is just such an absolute extreme disconnect between the crime and punishment that it seems impossibly illogical. It also further surprises me at how many people overlook this. From this point it's looking at it from an atheistic standpoint, but even so it goes against logic to have this sort of faith. There is no evidence towards the existence of a god, so one has to actively go against what is rational, to abide by something that isn't rational.

    I can understand why someone will be religious. It's hardwired into human biology in many respects, and there's strong influence from being raised in it and whatnot, and I can understand that within this bubble it's not really possible to see and actually take this disconnect in justice to true heart. Still, I just don't "get it". It's borderline crazy IMO.

    Ok, enough soapboxing for now.
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  7. #147
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    Why so serious ?! If you wanna believe in God, go ahead. Unless you believe in God, it's also up to you.
    Everybody will faith their fate though.

  8. #148
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mostasa View Post
    Why so serious ?! If you wanna believe in God, go ahead. Unless you believe in God, it's also up to you.
    Everybody will faith their fate though.
    I'm generally a very serious person, and take things seriously unless there is an indication to do things otherwise.

    There's actually no way to know if people will face their fate though. There isn't anyway to know if the concept of fate actually exists either. There's no reason or solid evidence to support it.
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  9. #149
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    Even so the Muslim president of Egypt said it a couple of days ago on the anniversary of the Islamic Prophet Muhammed, how come 1.6 billion Muslims wants to dominate 6 billions of people or subjugate them ??

  10. #150
    Member Eska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mostasa View Post
    Why so serious ?! If you wanna believe in God, go ahead. Unless you believe in God, it's also up to you.
    Everybody will faith their fate though.
    The issue many have with it, is when it is "shoved down people's throat" and used as a justification to commit any act (criminal, etc.).

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