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  1. #131
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's the hypocracy that's annoying.
    As I already said, I don't see it.
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  2. #132
    Member Eska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You're questioning because you can't get outside your own worldview. You view Islam as a religion. She views it as the religion. That is what makes it more than "just" a religion to her. That's not a matter of metaphor. If you honestly believe that there is only one god and that Muhhamad is his prophet then within that framework it really is not "just" a religion as that puts islam on par with every other religion.

    Do you think using logic and reason is just a way to look at the world or the way?

    It's not that she's being logically inconsistent it's just that you probably think your worldview is superior to her's from the start and aren't thinking within her framework of belief.
    She is, in fact, being logically inconsistent.

    It is nonsensical to imply that a worldview is inherently superior to another, although, it is sensical to imply that a worldview is irrational.

    In this case, her worldview is irrational.
    The world view you assume I have, is rational.

    Does it mean that she's wrong? No.
    Does it mean that her worldview is inconsistent with rationality? Yes.

    Give me an example of a faith that isn't a religion.
    The faith that there's an invisible green chair behind you, screaming; "Pizza!".

    As far as I know, there's no religion that advocates this particular belief.

  3. #133
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    As I already said, I don't see it.
    It could be a personality thing, but what really bothers me is the influence of a society that probably automatically tells you you're open-minded because of your views. Which is bullshit. Open-mindedness is a matter of practice and not a specific viewpoint.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  4. #134
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eska View Post
    She is, in fact, being logically inconsistent.

    It is nonsensical to imply that a worldview is inherently superior to another, although, it is sensical to imply that a worldview is irrational.

    In this case, her worldview is irrational.
    The world view you assume I have, is rational.

    Does it mean that she's wrong? No.
    Does it mean that her worldview is inconsistent with rationality? Yes.
    1. You're just making a bunch of assertions.

    2. There's a difference between a flawed premise and logical inconsistency.
    Your issue should be (and mine is) that she has a flawed premise.

    3. The focus on her view of superiority is merely a matter of you pushing your own world view on her which allows people to have whatever flawed and inconsistent views that they want as long as the eventually come to the "right" set of conclusions: one of which is that no religion or worldview is superior to another.

    4. You don't actually place value on rationality... or anything...? Please.

    The faith that there's an invisible green chair behind you, screaming; "Pizza!".

    As far as I know, there's no religion that advocates this particular belief.
    We were talking about "a faith" not faith. Everybody that uses the phrase I was criticizing is actually referring to an organized set of beliefs.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #135
    Member Eska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    1. You're just making a bunch of assertions.

    2. There's a difference between a flawed premise and logical inconsistency.
    Your issue should be (and mine is) that she has a flawed premise.

    3. The focus on her view of superiority is merely a matter of you pushing your own world view on her which allows people to have whatever flawed and inconsistent views that they want as long as the eventually come to the "right" set of conclusions: one of which is that no religion or worldview is superior to another.

    4. You don't actually place value on rationality... or anything...? Please.
    To clarify, I've also assumed that she's a Muslim.

    Yes, I am making assertions. Is there an issue with these assertions?

    A set of premises can be logically inconsistent.

    I fail to understand your third point.

    Is your fourth point a rhetorical question? What is your point?

    I'm not sure what you're arguing.

    She pointed out that Islam is more than a religion, and I contested that claim.

    What is your point on the matter?

    We were talking about "a faith" not faith. Everybody that uses the phrase I was criticizing is actually referring to an organized set of beliefs.
    I see.

  6. #136
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It could be a personality thing, but what really bothers me is the influence of a society that probably automatically tells you you're open-minded because of your views. Which is bullshit. Open-mindedness is a matter of practice and not a specific viewpoint.
    That's because some views are open minded, and others are not. For the most part the vast majority of the time you will be one or other associated with those views.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  7. #137
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post

    If you study Sharia you’d agree that Islam is not just a religion, besides Sharia is not just an Islamic law.
    And I don’t find any problems if Sharia was the rule to rule, it’s logically reasonable not a symbol of Islam, and it put all things to it’s place and give all the rights to all humanity.

    I suggest you think about it more.
    I suspect much within Sharia is culturally based, as are the various interpretations of Islam.

    I suggest YOU think about it more. You may be too close to see things clearly. I tend to be one of the most vocal defenders of Islam on this forum, but that is in spite of the backwardness and inequality of many interpretations of Islam, not because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    Colours difference has no effect on applying justice, but gender does.
    And why is that? Difference is difference. If we are going to dispense justice based on membership in some identifiable group, there are no limits on which distinctions we can use. You are right, though, about responsibilities going along with rights. Denying women responsibility has long been used as a pretext for also denying them rights. Your view of Islam, which is sadly too common, is that women are just overgrown children, requiring the support and protection of a man. Where this is so it is because men have made it so, because there is nothing inherent in the nature of women that requires it. I expect the same rights available to men, and the same responsibilities as well. As you say, that's only fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    No one can deny the accuracy and fairness of the economical system put by Islam, we’re not going to discuss this.
    This about says it all. Until more Muslims are willing to discuss, to question and to think for themselves about Islam and everything associated with it, Muslims and the practice of Islam will continue to be vilified in much of the world, whether or not that is justified in a particular situation. Fortunately there are thoughtful, open-minded, forward-thinking Muslims trying to bring about such an understanding.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  8. #138
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Oh I don't necessarily mean the burqa, but more moderate forms of Islam where the women wear head scarves and long skirts, I believe they make a rational counter argument to Western women assuming that we are that advanced since we can exploit ourselves...no Western women are advanced for other reasons, and the main benefit to being less clothed is teaching men they have to control themselves rather than blaming women for being immodest. That being said, I am of the camp where I am comfortable with nudity and lingerie, but am practical in walking down the street at midnight in the city usually in sensible shoes and jeans, because people do take you more seriously (perhaps unfairly) when you have more clothes on, and also because I have heard early feminist horror punk rock about women wearing high heels so they can be incapacitated as easy prey. Because it's true.

    Burqas just kinda give me the instinctive heebie jeebies when I randomly see them around L.A. It's medieval, reminds me of torture devices.
    Women in Islam (or perhaps, the Arabian culture) needs a thread of its own.

    There's a lot of controversy over what constitutes modesty, the purpose is thrown out the window when it's impractical, too (since Islam prides itself on being practical):

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There is a point where methods of covering up - burqas, some abayas, etc - interfere with daily life through limited visibility or awkwardness getting around.
    This is just foolishness and a perfect sign of oppression.

    The interpretation of the passage in the Quran is different from person to person however intelligent muslims argue that there's no need to cover up, as we're no longer desert dwellers and it's highly unsuitable in our current lifestyles. There are also a lot of muslims that argue against the hijab in western countries as it attracts more attention thereby becoming less 'modest'.
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  9. #139
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    There is another thing us non-muslims fail to realize about the burka.
    In Islamic nations if you want to be accepted or be appreciated you have to be a good girl or to put it is other words the peer pressure to be a good girl is quite high. And the easiest way to be a good girl is to be religious; unfortunately for Muslim women Burkas are one of the easiest ways to indicate their religiousness.
    Naturally, considering how severe the consequences are for 'immoral' women, there's a strong push to protect their daughters at any cost. How often do you hear about men being stoned to death for 'adultery'? When muslim men 'misbehave', all they're given is a slap on the wrist, for women, it's a death sentence.


    Why do you think Muslim women who live in Arabic or oppressive Muslim nations don't wear Burkas when they live outside or leave those countries? It's either they aren't forced to wear it anymore or they realize wearing one doesn't make them the epitome of good girlness in these new communities.
    Mostly it's a realisation that the consequences aren't life-threatening.

  10. #140
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    Naturally, considering how severe the consequences are for 'immoral' women, there's a strong push to protect their daughters at any cost. How often do you hear about men being stoned to death for 'adultery'? When muslim men 'misbehave', all they're given is a slap on the wrist, for women, it's a death sentence.




    Mostly it's a realisation that the consequences aren't life-threatening.
    Actually I forgot to add to the post you quoted that I've heard the Quran advices its followers to integrate into the societies they live in and that women aren't supposed to cover themselves when living in such communities.

    I think the biggest issue Muslims have is their inability to integrate into the communities they live in and instead of trying respecting those cultures and traditions they shun it, claim they are not Islamic and try to impose their own cultures and laws (Sharia) into these societies. Islam not only has its own religion it also has its own culture. So accepting some other culture or refusing to live according to your culture (which is mostly arabic) means you are going against your religion.

    However, the Quran advices its followers to integrate. Not so sure about it though. Maybe @Mademoiselle could clear things for us.
    .

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