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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I hope the political backlash is swift and ferocious; the Abbott government must be forced to the right.

    Comments like this:



    ...show how delusional the political establishment is. They will believe in multiculturalism until the day it kills them. The only way to solve this problem is to treat the cause, not the symptoms. That does not mean poking cameras inside everybody's homes, it means a complete ban on third world immigration.
    I honestly must agree in some parts of the world this is true. While I have personally met wise, kind Muslims, my own sister briefly married a suspected terrorist in a fit of youthful idealism (they married barely knowing each other, because like in the olden days, they decided they couldn't have sex before marriage)...she divorced him almost as quickly, finding him rough, cruel and she was suspicious of his friends. It's like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon, except it's the six degrees of jihad. It's all fun and games until the federal government comes banging on your mother's door.

    But seriously, in the United States Islamic extremism is much LESS of a problem than it is in Europe, particularly in countries like England and France where multiculturalism and it's importance have been overstated, tolerance for tolerance sake is intellectually facile, morally lazy, and apparently just plain fucking stupid, as we can observe from the consequences. Why must Fi Te be so vigilant about justice? Because the Te facts of life is that Hitler was overcome by military strategy, not by Ghandi. Same to extremists, extremists cannot be fought with tolerance. Bwahh haha. It's like they want Istanbul to be Constantinople again. Are people so ignorant they don't realize how powerful the Ottoman Empire once was? European Christians did not invent tyranny, probably the psychopathic gene did.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So, exactly what "female rights" are preserved by giving a man twice the inheritance of his sister; giving a woman's testimony only half the credibility of a man's; having family assets owned entirely by the husband; giving fathers overwhelming preference in custody of children; having no minimum age requirement for marriage; excluding women from religious and legal leadership roles? The obvious physiological differences between men and women support none of these distinctions, and progressive Muslim thinkers and activists are already pushing for change.

    Blacks and whites are different, too. Should we have different laws for them? How about deaf people, or people with a photographic memory, or even those who are left-handed? Humanity is full of diversity on many levels. There is no justification for singling out one of these distinctions and determining people's treatment under the law on that basis. Americans tried that for generations using race as the discriminator, and we are still suffering for it today. Better for the law to be based on our common humanity, so the differences in how we are treated are due to our actual actions and choices as individuals, not what group we happen to be a part of.


    Equality is not identity. Equality of opportunity and under the law does not guarantee equality of results. Why? Because everyone is different, obviously.
    Yes, I agree with you on all points. The only convincing argument I have read, usually from Muslim women, is the modesty argument, that they are more respected for being accepted or loved for who they are, not what they look like in a bikini. I find that argument actually highly rational, there's a similar argument for Christian modesty, and even from some non religious feminists who intentionally rebuke any form of mainstream cosmetics or objectification.

    But beyond that it's oppression upon women in order to control them.

  3. #113
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Actually you really can't. The whole basis of criminal law is discrimination. It's just a matter of what equalities you value and what you don't value.

    Current views on equality and discrimination really stunts thinking on these issues. Equality isn't always good and discrimination isn't always bad.
    Exactly. That's the difference between trying to make or claim that people are all the same, and giving everyone access to the same opportunities, including treatment by the law. As the old saying goes, you can't make the horse drink; but if he has no access to water, he cannot choose to do so. As for discrimination, we do it all the time. It becomes a problem only when done on frivolous or irrelevant bases.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yes, I agree with you on all points. The only convincing argument I have read, usually from Muslim women, is the modesty argument, that they are more respected for being accepted or loved for who they are, not what they look like in a bikini. I find that argument actually highly rational, there's a similar argument for Christian modesty, and even from some non religious feminists who intentionally rebuke any form of mainstream cosmetics or objectification.

    But beyond that it's oppression upon women in order to control them.
    I have much less objection to the whole modesty issue, especially if it is not used to limit the activities of women and girls. Islam requires men be modest as well, though the specific requirements are different, as are public indecency laws in the west. Just look around the U.S. and the average man tends to be far more covered up than the average woman. I've commented on that elsewhere, and still don't understand it, but that's another topic.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  4. #114
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yes, I agree with you on all points. The only convincing argument I have read, usually from Muslim women, is the modesty argument, that they are more respected for being accepted or loved for who they are, not what they look like in a bikini. I find that argument actually highly rational, there's a similar argument for Christian modesty, and even from some non religious feminists who intentionally rebuke any form of mainstream cosmetics or objectification.

    But beyond that it's oppression upon women in order to control them.
    There is another thing us non-muslims fail to realize about the burka.

    Have you seen much - I am not saying any I am saying much - successful Muslim women in the fields of medicine, science, writing, research, media, politics, education, theatre, sports etc or to simply put it any of the fields you can think of? Because I haven't, although the Muslim population in this world is quite high. This doesn't Muslim women aren't capable of any of the above, it just means they aren't allowed in those fields or aren't appreciated for their success any field; any field except for being religious. In Islamic nations if you want to be accepted or be appreciated you have to be a good girl or to put it is other words the peer pressure to be a good girl is quite high. And the easiest way to be a good girl is to be religious; unfortunately for Muslim women Burkas are one of the easiest ways to indicate their religiousness.

    Why do you think Muslim women who live in Arabic or oppressive Muslim nations don't wear Burkas when they live outside or leave those countries? It's either they aren't forced to wear it anymore or they realize wearing one doesn't make them the epitome of good girlness in these new communities.

    The above is also noticeable in Muslim women who live in Muslim communities and non Muslim communities outside of Muslim countries. Take England for example. Even where I live - I don't live in England - Muslim women who live in Muslim villages and Muslim communities wear Burkas, but Muslim women who live in other communities even wear short skirts.

    The easiest way to be accepted in to your community is to imply one's religiousness.
    .
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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    There is another thing us non-muslims fail to realize about the burka.

    Have you seen much - I am not saying any I am saying much - successful Muslim women in the fields of medicine, science, writing, research, media, politics, education, theatre, sports etc or to simply put it any of the fields you can think of? Because I haven't, although the Muslim population in this world is quite high. This doesn't Muslim women aren't capable of any of the above, it just means they aren't allowed in those fields or aren't appreciated for their success any field; any field except for being religious. In Islamic nations if you want to be accepted or be appreciated you have to be a good girl or to put it is other words the peer pressure to be a good girl is quite high. And the easiest way to be a good girl is to be religious; unfortunately for Muslim women Burkas are one of the easiest ways to indicate their religiousness.

    Why do you think Muslim women who live in Arabic or oppressive Muslim nations don't wear Burkas when they live outside or leave those countries? It's either they aren't forced to wear it anymore or they realize wearing one doesn't make them the epitome of good girlness in these new communities.

    The above is also noticeable in Muslim women who live in Muslim communities and non Muslim communities outside of Muslim countries. Take England for example. Even where I live - I don't live in England - Muslim women who live in Muslim villages and Muslim communities wear Burkas, but Muslim women who live in other communities even wear short skirts.

    The easiest way to be accepted in to your community is to imply one's religiousness.

    Oh I don't necessarily mean the burqa, but more moderate forms of Islam where the women wear head scarves and long skirts, I believe they make a rational counter argument to Western women assuming that we are that advanced since we can exploit ourselves...no Western women are advanced for other reasons, and the main benefit to being less clothed is teaching men they have to control themselves rather than blaming women for being immodest. That being said, I am of the camp where I am comfortable with nudity and lingerie, but am practical in walking down the street at midnight in the city usually in sensible shoes and jeans, because people do take you more seriously (perhaps unfairly) when you have more clothes on, and also because I have heard early feminist horror punk rock about women wearing high heels so they can be incapacitated as easy prey. Because it's true.

    Burqas just kinda give me the instinctive heebie jeebies when I randomly see them around L.A. It's medieval, reminds me of torture devices.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    This is a good way to distinguish our difference. As a conservative I think the fundamental values of civilization are truth, beauty, and goodness. Reason, freedom, and equality, while functionally important, get you nothing without the former three.

    Both of these are true statements on their own, but I think you're taking a bit of poetic license in connecting them to eachother just so you can make the point you want. If I'm wrong, please elaborate.
    Truth, beauty and goodness, dear Beorn, are fundamental to many civilisations. And the values of evidence and reason, freedom and equality are unique to our own. And our values have been arrived at for historical reasons, just as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was arrived at historically after we defeated a totalitarian ideology in WW II.

    It is becoming increasingly important to be able to defend liberal democracy. So we need to understand liberal democracy.

    Any political system is about power. And almost all political systems are about the maximising of power. But counter-intuitively, liberal democracy is uniquely about the limitation of power, because we have discovered in the West that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    So liberal democracy limits power by The Separation of Powers. And by other means such a Constitution and elections.

    Liberal democracy is fascinating because the natural urge of politicians is to maximise their power, but in a liberal democracy their natural urge is frustrated.

    So a liberal democracy limits power and maximises freedom and equality.

  7. #117
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Burqas just kinda give me the instinctive heebie jeebies when I randomly see them around L.A. It's medieval, reminds me of torture devices.
    There is a point where methods of covering up - burqas, some abayas, etc - interfere with daily life through limited visibility or awkwardness getting around. Beyond that, though it is certainly symptomatic of deep-seated attitudes about women, it is often the least of women's worries.

    I have read that university enrollment by women actually increased after the theocratic revolution ousted the western-oriented Shah. This was because more conservative families, often in rural areas, felt more comfortable sending their daughters off to university in the conservative Islamic environment. It is possible similarly for a woman to maintain an independent professional life and hold a modern perspective on most things while dressing conservatively in public and at work, to avoid unnecessary attention. Just another flavor of "when in Rome", which applies first and foremost to Romans, I suppose.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  8. #118
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    This is unfair an irrational. Sharia law is based off religious text and context. Religion is a personal decision, nor is it provable. Therefore it can not be applied to everyone else. To do so is to enforce unfounded beliefs on others which goes against human rights.



    This is precisely the problem that many people take with sharia law. You're assuming that justice and equality must be mutually exclusive, when in fact, they aren't. People want equality AND justice, and you can in fact blend them.

    You're also going to be very hard-pressed to find people who agree with you on this front here either.

    If you study Sharia you’d agree that Islam is not just a religion, besides Sharia is not just an Islamic law.
    And I don’t find any problems if Sharia was the rule to rule, it’s logically reasonable not a symbol of Islam, and it put all things to it’s place and give all the rights to all humanity.

    I suggest you think about it more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's true that minority religions, Christians and Jews, have been tolerated to an extent or at least not obliterated in Muslim countries for many centuries. However, your statements don't address apostasy of Muslims themselves and attempts by non-Muslims to convert Muslims. Do you believe those should be crimes under Sharia law and punishable by death or imprisonment?

    Not really, it’s not just we have many many examples to prove that it’s forbidden, but the very basics of Islam forbids that, remember Quran is most accurate, and according to Quran Zulm [translation: injustice, oppression, iniquity, unfairness, inequity, inequality, extortion] is forbidden even Alla forbids it form himself, even when fighting against enemies at battlefield, Quran says:
    “O you who believe, be maintainers of justice (and bearer of) witness for (the sake of) God. Let not hatred of a people incite you to act unjustly; be just—this is nearer to righteousness. And fear God surely God is aware of what you do.” (Surah al-Maida, 5:8)

    Even harming environment is forbidden, as before battle, Muhammad (PBUH) said:

    • “Do not violate the treaties.”

    • “Do not kill an old person or a child or a woman.”

    • “Do not cut down a tree.”

    • “Neither burn down the palm-trees nor drown them with water.”

    • “Do not cut down a tree bearing fruits.”

    • “Do not drown the plantations.”

    • “Do not poison the water of the infidels.”

    And Muhammad (PBUH)’s quotes are all prophecies and orders form Alla and should be followed].
    So how come hurting non-muslim is allowed?! It’s not.
    - - - - -
    And Islam is most detailed, impressively justice again I see not problem applying any line of it to the whole world wide.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So, exactly what "female rights" are preserved by giving a man twice the inheritance of his sister; giving a woman's testimony only half the credibility of a man's; having family assets owned entirely by the husband; giving fathers overwhelming preference in custody of children; having no minimum age requirement for marriage; excluding women from religious and legal leadership roles? The obvious physiological differences between men and women support none of these distinctions, and progressive Muslim thinkers and activists are already pushing for change.

    Blacks and whites are different, too. Should we have different laws for them? How about deaf people, or people with a photographic memory, or even those who are left-handed? Humanity is full of diversity on many levels. There is no justification for singling out one of these distinctions and determining people's treatment under the law on that basis. Americans tried that for generations using race as the discriminator, and we are still suffering for it today. Better for the law to be based on our common humanity, so the differences in how

    Hehehe, money and genders in Islam:
    Men must gain money for the family to run.
    Women can gain money.
    Men must give some of the money to their wives and families.
    Women are free to spend money (Unless illegally).
    Men Get full part of the money left form his parents as his sister’s would get half part.
    No one can deny the accuracy and fairness of the economical system put by Islam, we’re not going to discuss this.
    Leadership? not like that.
    More responsibility = more rights.
    That’s how it’s fair.
    Men got more responsibilities in family so they got more rights in the family.
    It’s not like a man is above all women just because he’s male.
    Only in the family, the dad has the final word, the mother then on the lower level the kids has the right to express opinions.
    In the end ALL must get their rights.
    Notice I said men and not males, because all males should be men. (that’s a manners matter maturity and not age)

    Colours difference has no effect on applying justice, but gender does.
    But the gender difference makes the urge to two different styles to treat the different genders so they’re equal.
    Also in the true value levels, ranking according to faith and manners is all up to the person regardless of anything physical.
    And no don’t worry there’s no single thing not taken care of.
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  9. #119
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    Not really,
    That's not a terribly reassuring response, but I'll blame it on translation issues.

    it’s not just we have many many examples to prove that it’s forbidden, but the very basics of Islam forbids that,
    I'd prefer the specifics rather than verses about the environment. In exegesis you typically want to start with the specific verses and then go to the generic principles, not the other way around.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hadith records the sanctioning of the killing of apostates by Muhammad. Because of this there are still many Muslims and many countries that follow this tradition. My own tradition has a number of leaders that committed genocide at the request of God and I have very specific reasons why I don't don't believe that's a basis for modern law and there is no modern Christian country that disagrees with me. I want to know what your specific reasons are for not continuing these practices by Muhammad or whether or not you believe that he did them. I'm not interested in generic appeals to justice and goodness.
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  10. #120
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    If you study Sharia you’d agree that Islam is not just a religion, besides Sharia is not just an Islamic law.
    And I don’t find any problems if Sharia was the rule to rule, it’s logically reasonable not a symbol of Islam, and it put all things to it’s place and give all the rights to all humanity.

    I suggest you think about it more.
    How patronizing and almost proselytizing like. Islam IS a religion. Period. There is no argument or discussion there at all. Sharia law comes from Islam, the vast majority of it throughout the world is from the mindset of enforcing adherence to Islam. Not everyone agrees with Islam, and that is the problem. For example, I am atheist, and I am for the reason that there is no reasonable or credible evidence towards any religious or spiritual belief system. As such, I feel nor see no reason to put stock into something that is unsupportable. I further do not agree with sharia law. I see it as archaic and backwards in many respects, and secular law as far superior to it. Of which is used much more commonly throughout the world because it has supportable basis to it. Sharia dictates how individuals are supposed to live their lives in ways that do not effect others around them. It's a moral police which is flat not acceptable as morals that do not harm others are to be the decision of the individual.

    You want others to live and adhere to the values of your religion even though many people do not share or agree with. That is not how the world should work, and is WILDLY unfair.
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