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  1. #21
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    @uumlau
    Everybody is against rape, racism, and police brutality. Unfortunately, not everyone in the position to properly investigate those things are interested in doing so when power and reputation are at stake.
    So we end up with a false dichotomy between "follow the narrative, even if doing so is completely stupid" and "don't believe any rape allegations whatsoever". Just because the middle ground seems so extreme to the extremists is no reason not to advocate it. Should allegations be investigated? Yes. Should conclusions be drawn and punishments applied prior to learning anything other than allegations? No.

    Peer pressure can be useful to prompt people who would not otherwise act into acting, but in these cases, I see people being compelled into acting because the crowd has already decided guilt.

    This is like driving a car by either flooring the accelerator or slamming the brakes, with no attempt to apply reasonable driving techniques. The human mind is capable of handling much more sophisticated reasoning.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  2. #22
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Should allegations be investigated? Yes. Should conclusions be drawn and punishments applied prior to learning anything other than allegations? No.
    Sure. However, I'm concerned you may be labeling people who may be engaged in advocacy on either side as extremists and not just asinine talking heads. I think we need advocates of all sorts and not just people interested in driving down the middle road as you say. There's a reason why in America we have an adversarial court system. A lively meaningful discourse can yield a better result and unfortunately we don't always get that when emotions can run high on a topic. That being said, Nancy Grace might be one of the worst human beings on earth.

    At the very least we want certain people in certain positions to maintain some sense of objectivity and avoidance of rushing to judgement. Journalists who engage in investigations of criminal matters are in that group.

    I'm equally concerned at people rushing to judgements in rape cases a la Duke as I am concerned about under-reporting of rape and failures to investigate when the situation warrants it.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
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  3. #23
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Anyone have anything to say about the issue in the op?
    rolling stones should have fact self better


    other than that, no i've never been raped nor have i ever been in a frat (not to brag on either account, just explaining why i have nothing to say, as i know nothing on the topics)
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #24
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The human mind is capable of handling much more sophisticated reasoning.
    At least theoretically.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  5. #25
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Ugh. Smdh.

    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #26
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The Rolling Stone apology was an awful non-apology that attempted to shift the blame off of their own poor journalism. This is going to be a huge setback for actual victims of sexual assault on college campuses.
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  7. #27
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sure. However, I'm concerned you may be labeling people who may be engaged in advocacy on either side as extremists and not just asinine talking heads.
    You're making my point for me. My problem with "the narrative" is that it automatically turns you into an extremist, because it serves as the de facto framework for any discussion on the matter. The problem isn't that the people themselves are extremists, but the narrative forces them to be either "for" or "against" a very particular fanciful version of the truth. One of the purposes of our adversarial court system is to place an objective framework on top of this natural tendency towards a narrative, such as having rules on which evidence is even admissible.

    The problem isn't advocates on either side as there is nothing wrong with advocating one's beliefs. The problem is that the narrative creates a fantasy version of each side, and both are stuck arguing for/against the narrative and have no time left for arguing for their actual beliefs. For example, I believe UVA had no reasonable choice other than to overreact to the Rolling Stone article, because the narrative carries that much weight in favor of reacting that way. If you don't overreact, you are a part of the problem, and the narrative starts chastising YOU in the court of public opinion. And it's just as bad if you are on the side of advocacy, because you're forced to base the success of your advocacy on the success of the narrative, for the very same reasons.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  8. #28
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    Luckily I think culturally we have already reached peak progressive. Between microagressions, and trigger warnings things have gone as far as they can.

    Looking forward to the pendulum swinging back the other way.




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  9. #29
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I think it's going to go a bit further, first, especially as things like Obamacare have momentum and aren't going to be stopped for a while, yet. The employer mandates start kicking in on January 2015. Little Orwellian things like "Wellness Programs" which allow employers to charge higher premiums to those who don't participate.

    It'll be interesting to see how this pans out. Check this out: Exclusive: U.S. CEOs threaten to pull tacit Obamacare support over 'wellness' spat | Reuters

    Apparently, ACA violates the ADA, according to the EEOC, due to the Wellness Program provisions that require medical testing in order to comply.

    Sorry, I don't mean to derail your thread, but I thought it relevant to your musings. I might just start a thread on this topic ... or you can if I don't get around to it and you're interested.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I would be much less aggravated had the pres just suspended Phi Psi pending further investigation.
    When I originally read the story, this is what I said too. I would be more eager to find out the facts about a woman being raped, just as I would be eager to not destroy lives with false accusations before I did "something".
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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