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  1. #71
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't disagree. I wasn't really referring to my children, though. Although I do all of the shopping and preparing, my husband also has a say in how the family eats.
    I figure it's all about the children (heh heh!) because they're always more malleable than adults.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

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  2. #72
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Well, I've spoken with a lot of people who do think and feel like that. My cousin, for instance: he told me he doesn't give a flying fig about animal rights or pain or sentience or economics or pollution or anything... he likes his meat, he works hard to pay for it, and he's going to eat it.

    Note, however, that I am in no way saying that all meat-eaters think this way... frankly, I don't think most meat-eaters think about it at all.

    I've met and spoken with many meat-eaters who have very cogent arguments for the eating of meat. I've even met doctors who recommend that all children be given a meat diet until at least the age of 18 or so, for proper growth due to the particular kinds of proteins meat provides.

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    Full disclosure: I've been strictly vegetarian (meaning no fish) for over a year now... flirted with vegetarianism on and off before that... I miss meat and fish, on occasion, but it's not been a huge deal for me.... somehow, I figure that my being able to live without meat and be perfectly healthy and happy at the same time is a major argument for vegetarianism. I'm interested in finding out if there's a fully-rounded-out diet which avoids the death of even plants (like diets heavy on fruits and so forth).
    Fruitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  3. #73
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I figure it's all about the children (heh heh!) because they're always more malleable than adults.
    It would be easy to raise the kids vegan, and in fact they mostly are at this point. It's rare that they eat any meat, and I don't consider dairy to be health food so I buy more milk substitutes than actual milk. They like chicken abortions though.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #74
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Well, being a phalahari (fruit-eater) is a practice that's recorded way back when in India but typically yogis would supplement the fruits with some forms of nuts and grains... I read the article, and it supports what I read about back in India... milk would be a hundred percent necessary for me, though, and I don't agree with vegans that extracting milk from cows is necessarily a bad thing, though the manner in which its done is very important. It's a long discussion.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  5. #75
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Full disclosure: I've been strictly vegetarian (meaning no fish) for over a year now... flirted with vegetarianism on and off before that... I miss meat and fish, on occasion, but it's not been a huge deal for me.... somehow, I figure that my being able to live without meat and be perfectly healthy and happy at the same time is a major argument for vegetarianism. I'm interested in finding out if there's a fully-rounded-out diet which avoids the death of even plants (like diets heavy on fruits and so forth).
    Good luck with that. To each is own, though don't expect me to invite you around for dinner. On that note, I think that vagetarianism is an evil. It is immoral to not eat animals since that is why many farmyard animals exist in the first place, to deny them their purpose in life would be to destroy their entire species! I just want no part of that kind of barbarity.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #76
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It would be easy to raise the kids vegan, and in fact they mostly are at this point. It's rare that they eat any meat, and I don't consider dairy to be health food so I buy more milk substitutes than actual milk. They like chicken abortions though.
    Ah... foul uterine discharge. I haven't sworn off of that, so some might say I'm not the strict vegetarian I claim to be....

    can't give up eggs... or I'd never be able to eat half of the products out there, like pancakes and what not.... what a nightmare... as it is many jellos use cow-hooves for the gelatin.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  7. #77
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Well, being a phalahari (fruit-eater) is a practice that's recorded way back when in India but typically yogis would supplement the fruits with some forms of nuts and grains... I read the article, and it supports what I read about back in India... milk would be a hundred percent necessary for me, though, and I don't agree with vegans that extracting milk from cows is necessarily a bad thing, though the manner in which its done is very important. It's a long discussion.
    It also says that if your diet is at least 50% fruitarian then you are a fruitarian. I think this must be a nod to the fact that a diet of only fruit would be lacking certain nutrients and amino acids that are necessary to good health.

    It seems like if nuts and seeds are allowed, and leafy greens that keep growing after you cut them, it could work.

    Why is milk necessary for you? Milk isn't necessary for anyone. Anything that is in milk can be found elsewhere. It's fine if you just like it or if it's efficient/convenient for you to get those things from milk instead, but it seems to undermine your earlier critiques of meat eaters.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #78
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Good luck with that. To each is own, though don't expect me to invite you around for dinner. On that note, I think that vagetarianism is an evil. It is immoral to not eat animals since that is why many farmyard animals exist in the first place, to deny them their purpose in life would be to destroy their entire species! I just want no part of that kind of barbarity.
    That is the most absurd argument I've ever heard. Releasing farm animals into the wild would probably result in a massive environmental upheaval, due to the interaction of wild and domestic animals.... but domesticated animals generally turn feral... the laws of evolution would kick in and only those individuals would survive and procreate which were able to... but after the initial trauma, equilibrium would be achieved, even if some species died out. Better to end the misery once and for all than to prolong it over countless generations. The true barbarism is your idea that being enslaved is a good thing. It would be more honest of you to say that breeding and slaughtering animals is part of the truth of living in a world where people eat meat than to rationalize farm animals' subjection by saying they enjoy it (see "reason"'s earlier post.)
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  9. #79
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Why is milk necessary for you? Milk isn't necessary for anyone. Anything that is in milk can be found elsewhere. It's fine if you just like it or if it's efficient/convenient for you to get those things from milk instead, but it seems to undermine your earlier critiques of meat eaters.
    I like milk and I've lived around free-range cows who aren't hurt or disabled in any way by the milking process. Milk is NOT necessary for my growth or sustenance, but I deem it a product that doesn't result in collateral damage, certainly not the same way killing a cow would.

    I don't see how my drinking milk (because I like it) quite undermines my argument about meat-eating.... which by the way, I haven't REALLY condemned. I'm arguing both sides really. I don't really know if it's "wrong" to eat meat.... I'm pretty sure it's not necessary though.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #80
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    That is the most absurd argument I've ever heard. Releasing farm animals into the wild would probably result in a massive environmental upheaval, due to the interaction of wild and domestic animals.... but domesticated animals generally turn feral... the laws of evolution would kick in and only those individuals would survive and procreate which were able to... but after the initial trauma, equilibrium would be achieved, even if some species died out. Better to end the misery once and for all than to prolong it over countless generations. The true barbarism is your idea that being enslaved is a good thing. It would be more honest of you to say that breeding and slaughtering animals is part of the truth of living in a world where people eat meat than to rationalize farm animals' subjection by saying they enjoy it (see "reason"'s earlier post.)
    Really. That's what would happen, eh? Interesting. I think that domesticated animals have been bred to accept and welcome their own slaughter, since those who were accepting and complacent about their own death would also be those that would procreate, passing their genes into future generations. That's evolution, and that the selective pressure comes from generations of farmers makes no difference to the end result i.e. docile animals which--similar to many others--accept an early death to benefit their progeny. Turning them out into the harsh bosom of nature would be an act of cruelty and barbarity not unlike sending children into a warzone. Dispicable.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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