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  1. #61
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    To me, while I appreciate and share your desire to minimize pain and death for my own sustenance, I tend to think that the locus of influence lies in choosing locally grown food from sustainable farms, whether that food be animal or vegetable. The impact of doing so transcends our own small spheres. Supporting ecologically unfriendly vegetable farming hurts more organisms, IMO, than eating an animal that was raised humanely with attention to local ecology.
    Well, the choice is not limited to "eating an animal that was raised humanely with attention to local ecology" and eating vegetables/plant matter from "ecologically unfriendly vegetable farming".

    Between eating organically-grown vegetables and "humanely"-slaughtered animals, I'd choose the former.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  2. #62
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Well I do not think that you are Samuel De Mazarinable. So there!
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  3. #63
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Between eating organically-grown vegetables and "humanely"-slaughtered animals, I'd choose the former.
    Mmm . . . organically-fed, free-range, "humanely"-slaughtered animals for the win.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #64
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Well, the choice is not limited to "eating an animal that was raised humanely with attention to local ecology" and eating vegetables/plant matter from "ecologically unfriendly vegetable farming".

    Between eating organically-grown vegetables and "humanely"-slaughtered animals, I'd choose the former.
    No, you're correct. It's not as simple as just choosing to consume only plant matter, either. In lieu of forcing my entire family to be vegans, I feel pretty good about feeding us a small amount of meat from local and sustainable sources that treat the animals well and slaughter them painlessly or as close to it as possible.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #65
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    Mmm . . . organically-fed, free-range, "humanely"-slaughtered animals for the win.
    This is a classic example of someone side-stepping the whole "animals have or don't have feelings" question and simply saying, I like it, so I'll do it.

    If our society was built on that sort of reasoning, we'd be doomed.

    That's why I think a lot of vegetarians and animal rights activists get upset with certain meat-eaters... those meat-eaters who, instead of making a real argument about animal sentience, simply say, "I like it so I'll do it."
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  6. #66
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    This is a classic example of someone side-stepping the whole "animals have or don't have feelings" question and simply saying, I like it, so I'll do it.

    If our society was built on that sort of reasoning, we'd be doomed.

    That's why I think a lot of vegetarians and animal rights activists get upset with certain meat-eaters... those meat-eaters who, instead of making a real argument about animal sentience, simply say, "I like it so I'll do it."
    LOL
    I am not about to get into whether animals have feelings, or whether their possessing feelings means we should not eat them. You expressed a food preference and so did I.

    OK I admit it was partly to get your goat.

    Mmmm . . . goat
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  7. #67
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    That's why I think a lot of vegetarians and animal rights activists get upset with certain meat-eaters... those meat-eaters who, instead of making a real argument about animal sentience, simply say, "I like it so I'll do it."
    Even if a lot of meat-eaters say this and even if it is true, it is obviously not their only motivation. I am sure that many people would like the taste of other humans (though perhaps not animal rights activists who don't wash and taste like vegetables), but they do not enjoy enjoy eating humans. There are other principles guiding their behaviour, even if they are not entirely articulated.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #68
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    No, you're correct. It's not as simple as just choosing to consume only plant matter, either. In lieu of forcing my entire family to be vegans, I feel pretty good about feeding us a small amount of meat from local and sustainable sources that treat the animals well and slaughter them painlessly or as close to it as possible.
    Well, that's the point, I gather... "forcing" people to conform to a certain lifestyle. But this is the nature of society. Without even meaning to, we end up forcing people into certain modes of behaviors which they had no choice in accepting.

    For instance, if I raised my family vegetarian (which I will), more likely than not, my children will remain vegetarian throughout their lives or, at the very least, eat meat only very rarely, if it all. Likewise, if you raise your family on a meat-and-veggies diet, it's highly unlikely your kids will drop meat halfway through their lives.

    But both the vegetarian and the meat-eating family have inculcated certain learned behaviors in their progeny, without said progeny having a choice.

    So by feeding one's young children meat, one is forcing them to be carnivores. And the same, of course, goes for an adult never feeding a child meat... he's forcing them into vegetarian modes of behavior which may result in a child who is psychologically unprepared to eat meat later in life, even if he or she may wish to try meat. (I've met many vegetarians who can't stand the smell of meat simply because they've not been used to eating it from a young age, like what happens with people who are not lactose-intolerant due to genetics but because of a largely dairy-free diet from childhood).
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  9. #69
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Well, that's the point, I gather... "forcing" people to conform to a certain lifestyle. But this is the nature of society. Without even meaning to, we end up forcing people into certain modes of behaviors which they had no choice in accepting.

    For instance, if I raised my family vegetarian (which I will), more likely than not, my children will remain vegetarian throughout their lives or, at the very least, eat meat only very rarely, if it all. Likewise, if you raise your family on a meat-and-veggies diet, it's highly unlikely your kids will drop meat halfway through their lives.

    But both the vegetarian and the meat-eating family have inculcated certain learned behaviors in their progeny, without said progeny having a choice.

    So by feeding one's young children meat, one is forcing them to be carnivores. And the same, of course, goes for an adult never feeding a child meat... he's forcing them into vegetarian modes of behavior which may result in a child who is psychologically unprepared to eat meat later in life, even if he or she may wish to try meat. (I've met many vegetarians who can't stand the smell of meat simply because they've not been used to eating it from a young age, like what happens with people who are not lactose-intolerant due to genetics but because of a largely dairy-free diet from childhood).
    I don't disagree. I wasn't really referring to my children, though. Although I do all of the shopping and preparing, my husband also has a say in how the family eats.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #70
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Even if a lot of meat-eaters say this and even if it is true, it is obviously not their only motivation. I am sure that many people would like the taste of other humans (though perhaps not animal rights activists who don't wash and taste like vegetables), but they do not enjoy enjoy eating humans. There are other principles guiding their decisions.
    Well, I've spoken with a lot of people who do think and feel like that. My cousin, for instance: he told me he doesn't give a flying fig about animal rights or pain or sentience or economics or pollution or anything... he likes his meat, he works hard to pay for it, and he's going to eat it.

    Note, however, that I am in no way saying that all meat-eaters think this way... frankly, I don't think most meat-eaters think about it at all.

    I've met and spoken with many meat-eaters who have very cogent arguments for the eating of meat. I've even met doctors who recommend that all children be given a meat diet until at least the age of 18 or so, for proper growth due to the particular kinds of proteins meat provides. I don't think it's a legitimate argument, because I've met many robustly healthy 'congenital vegetarians'. But that's why this thread is open, right?

    ______________________

    Full disclosure: I've been strictly vegetarian (meaning no fish) for over a year now... flirted with vegetarianism on and off before that... I miss meat and fish, on occasion, but it's not been a huge deal for me.... somehow, I figure that my being able to live without meat and be perfectly healthy and happy at the same time is a major argument for vegetarianism. I'm interested in finding out if there's a fully-rounded-out diet which avoids the death of even plants (like diets heavy on fruits and so forth).
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

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