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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Are animals sentient creatures? It's really hard for me to believe. I'm not closing my mind completely to the possibility, but I want hard empirical evidence. The Peta Ad is a poor comparison.
    Sentience is a curse. Your cat doesn't know he's going to get sick and die.

  2. #42
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Do you think animals have a right to not be murdered and eaten, like the mentally ill?
    Some do, some don't. Should they all have that right? No, they're just animals, bred over generations to be our food, never existing outside of captivity. If these animals could talk they might even tell us that they do not care if they die, and even want to be our food. That may seem strange, but the evolutionary success of farmyard animals has for many years depended upon their being a resource for mankind, and their genome and physiology reflect that selective pressure. There are many animals which willingly die before old age takes them because their sacrifice helps their relatives--humans included. It is not unthinkable that cows, pigs, sheep and other commonly farmed animals expect and welcome their deaths, since farmers would have always preferred to breed obedient animals that do not fear or resist their own slaughter.

    In any case, I can understand why some people think it is cruel and wrong, and I can understand their decision to stop eating meat, but I really do not care about the animals which we slaughter for food and like to eat meat. The line has to be drawn somwhere between those things which we grant a right and those which we do not, and for me most animals do not fall on the inside of that line which grants their lives any special protection, whereas the mentally ill do.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #43
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Do you think animals have a right to not be murdered and eaten, like the mentally ill?
    An animal cannot be murdered. Murder is the killing of a human being under specific conditions.
    Anyhow, no, they have no such "rights" unless so given by law (e.g. endangered species, etc.)
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #44
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I think that was my point.
    Then why are you still posting.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Then why are you still posting.
    Your post didn't really say anything, and started off with a snide comment out of left field, hence my joke about it, hence your not getting the joke or being over-offended (hard to tell), hence me hinting that it was a joke hence you still not getting it or being over-offended again (still no sign.) Everything clear yet? Chill out.

  6. #46
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Your post didn't really say anything, and started off with a snide comment out of left field, hence my joke about it, hence your not getting the joke or being over-offended (hard to tell), hence me hinting that it was a joke hence you still not getting it or being over-offended again (still no sign.) Everything clear yet? Chill out.
    a/ It said that this is just propaganda.
    b/ That wasn't from "left field." You have a very long history and my post was accurate.
    c/ Wrong.
    d/ Wrong.
    e/ Yeah. It's clear that you are mostly wrong.

    You should try to stay on topic by focusing on answer "a."
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    a/ It said that this is just propaganda.
    Do you see how fewer words can get a point across so efficiently, without any confusion? Wrap your head around it, it suits you.

  8. #48
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Still makes sense to me. What's done to animals and what was done to people back then seem very similar.

    Don't get me wrong, PETA are silly, they have no idea how to "convert" people. It's just that the comparisons they make seem fair.
    Maybe it is just me, but I don't think it is a good idea for an 'animal rights' group to argue the killing of animals is equal to what a deranged semi-vegetarian or vegetarian (depending who ones believe) did to a group of people is the much the same as what happens to animals. One has to remember one of Hitler arguments for sending Jews to concentration camps was because of their treatment of animals in regards of kosher dietary law.

    As a vegetarian, I am someone who one could say was philosophy on the same page as PETA. The fundamental difference between me and PETA is I am more pragmatic than PETA, and the fact PETA believes in 'animal rights' and I believe in 'animal welfare'.

    In my opinion what 'animal rights' activists argue goes too far. For example, PETA apparently advocate the elimination of all animal use. While I don't get what exactly is wrong with putting endangered animals in zoo. They also believe animals have 'rights', but with 'rights' becomes 'responsibility'.

    I also have serious problems with how PETA tries to force its view on people. The whole reason I am an vegetarian is because I believe in liberty.

    In my opinion humans and the rest of the animal kingdom are fundamentally different. Animals are not intelligent enough to know it is wrong to kill their own and other types of animals, but humans are intelligent and do it anyway.

    At best PETA is detrimental towards animal welfare and vegetarianism, and at worst it is a completely pointless organisation as other organisations like the RSPCA and Vegetarian Society do a much better job a advocating animal welfare and vegetarianism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    why do they care only about cute animals? What about earthworms and snails? They're ugly, so who cares??? So only save cute humans? Don't care about ugly humans??
    Because humans can relate to fluffy animals like dogs, cats, horses better than say over tuna fish and snails, so it is just marketing.

    I am not aware of widespread ill-treatment of earthworms happens. I am not saying it does not happen just that I am not aware of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    2) Why don't they care about bestiality? What? Animal rape is okay then? They clearly do not care about the animal's right to say no to rape.
    PETA official view is bestiality and zoophilia is ok if the animal consents as they view all mammals the same. How an animal consents to sex with an human I am not sure. Animal rape and bestiality are not necessarily the same thing; So no, PETA is technically against animal rape.

    As far as I know in nearly half of the states in America bestiality is legal as long as one can argue an animal was willing and consents.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Are animals sentient creatures? It's really hard for me to believe. I'm not closing my mind completely to the possibility, but I want hard empirical evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Sentience is a curse. Your cat doesn't know he's going to get sick and die.
    Both of your theories that animals don't and can't feel pain is a spasm to make you feel better. Animals can feel pain, this is basic science everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    An animal cannot be murdered. Murder is the killing of a human being under specific conditions.
    Anyhow, no, they have no such "rights" unless so given by law (e.g. endangered species, etc.)
    There is more than one definition you know;

    Quote Originally Posted by The American Heritage Dictionary


    Murder

    NOUN: 1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. 2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder. 3. A flock of crows.

    VERB: Inflected forms: mur·dered, mur·der·ing, mur·ders
    TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To kill (another human) unlawfully. 2. To kill brutally or inhumanly. 3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances. 4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language. 5. Slang To defeat decisively; trounce.
    INTRANSITIVE VERB: To commit murder.
    IDIOMS: get away with murder Informal To escape punishment for or detection of an egregiously blameworthy act. murder will out Secrets or misdeeds will eventually be disclosed.
    Just because something is not law does not mean a 'right' does not exist. For example, slavery was legal but I still would believe a slave had the 'right' not to be slaves before and after it became illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  9. #49
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    The only reason the attempted analogy doesn't work is because humans' slaughter of animals is mechanical and factory-line nowadays. This was one-shot psychosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by sketcheasy View Post
    he's asian AND his name is VINCE?!
    Where have you been, buddy? Many Chinese and Koreans adopt Christian names along side their native ones. Largely, I believe, to avoid foreigners from mangling and/or making fun of their native names.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #50
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    There is an amusing irony with PETA. The problem with animals is that they cannot fulfil the responsibilities that come with having rights. The same is true of many humans, such as the mentally ill, young or elderly. There is one other group, criminals. That PETA activists so often end up in that group is amusing, they are stripped of their rights because they are unable to fulfil the responsbilities which those rights bring, not so unlike the animals that they are trying to help.

    I qualify the above by noting that animals do have rights in proportion to their responsibilities, again not unlike the mentally ill, young and old. These groupd do not have the full rights of an ordinary adult human, and are often placed under the stewardship of one who is granted authority to make decisions and take responsbility on their behalf.
    So I can slaughter a child for meat because the child can't take responsibility for him or herself?
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

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