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  1. #31
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Besides sounding completely arbitrary, how do you even draw that conclusion with any certainty whatsoever?
    We raise\farm\breed, pretty much all of the meat that most people eat. Cattle have been domesticated and bred by humans since something like 10,000BC. I'd assume the same goes for chickens as well.

    Point being...we have essentially, through controlled breeding and such, created cattle the way they are today, and they exist in large numbers because of our raising of them. I would somewhat doubt that they would even be able to survive in the wild at all, considering how easy of a time predators seem to have with killing them.
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  2. #32
    perdu fleur par bologne Martoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    True. This may be obvious to everyone here, but...Species all look out for their own in some way or cease to exist. As a rule, what happens to every other species isn't important.

    I personally believe in protecting nature and non-interference, but when it comes to animals who wouldn't exist as they are without humans, and certainly in nothing near their present numbers, well, they're what's for dinner.
    I think there's kind of a set of nested, concentric perceptual spheres. At the center is Self; I'm me, and I matter more than anyone or anything else because, well, because I'm me. Outside that is the sphere of those very close to me. Maybe family and loved ones. Not quite as significant as Self, but pretty close. And they matter more than those outside that circle of loved ones. And you continue having perceptual spheres going outward, each meaning less to us than the sphere before it. People like myself, of the same culture, etc. Then maybe a larger cultural or national enclosure. And beyond that humans in general. And beyond that, other living species, etc. Maybe some of these layers are more of a continuum, rather than discrete spheres.

    Different people place different conceptual boundaries at different layers. I don't know that there's a truly objective way to say what the "right" layer is for a given boundary. Some people may argue that there is, but, ultimately, it comes down to a subjective analysis.
    I'm not a procrastinator. I'm a long-term planner.

  3. #33

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    PETA has exhausted all credibility with me. If they told me the sky was blue, I'd look twice. Someone needs to explain the food chain to them, preferably with pictures so they can understand. While torture is obviously something I don't endorse, I don't think humans owe other animals the same basic right to life that we owe to each other. If a bear can eat a salmon, we can eat a cow.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    We raise\farm\breed, pretty much all of the meat that most people eat. Cattle have been domesticated and bred by humans since something like 10,000BC. I'd assume the same goes for chickens as well.

    Point being...we have essentially, through controlled breeding and such, created cattle the way they are today, and they exist in large numbers because of our raising of them. I would somewhat doubt that they would even be able to survive in the wild at all, considering how easy of a time predators seem to have with killing them.
    It's a dumb argument, because it has nothing to do with ethics. Dependency does not give one a carte blanche to do as they please, in the same way that we don't give parents the right to do anything they want with their children.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    It's a dumb argument, because it has nothing to do with ethics. Dependency does not give one a carte blanche to do as they please, in the same way that we don't give parents the right to do anything they want with their children.
    Neither ethics nor rights are guaranteed. If you put someone in a position where they have to choose between survival and politeness to animals, what do you think they'll choose, and have chosen for thousands of years? An animal would likely eat you if it could figure out a plan.

  6. #36
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Neither ethics nor rights are guaranteed.
    Nothing is ever guaranteed, so I don't think that's a good starting point for deciding an ethical question. If it was, ethics would all crumble.

    If you put someone in a position where they have to choose between survival and politeness to animals, what do you think they'll choose, and have chosen for thousands of years?
    First, that is really a misrepresentation of the situation people face. We're not living in the prehistoric era.

    Second, we're not talking about self-defense, which is really a different issue. We're talking about killing animals for nourishment when there are alternative sources for food.

    Third, I'm still not sure what your point would be. So what if they choose it? Does that make it right or wrong? It's the same fallacy as above that what IS is what OUGHT TO BE and is wrong for obvious reasons.

    An animal would likely eat you if it could figure out a plan.
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  7. #37
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    PETA doesn't care if you live in the third world, in a drought, and you're down to your last cow. They'd rather see you die than kill any food animals. That's why I'm arguing the other side here. If you want to debate the ethics of vegetarianism in general...well, nevermind, I'd rather not.

  8. #38
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    PETA doesn't care if you live in the third world, in a drought, and you're down to your last cow. They'd rather see you die than kill any food animals. That's why I'm arguing the other side here. If you want to debate the ethics of vegetarianism in general...well, nevermind, I'd rather not.
    Well, I don't really care for PETA either. A agree with the message for the most part but it's lost in the delivery. I was arguing about using information, tragic or not, to shed light on an issue, which is done all the time. People are eager to criticize anything PETA does because they don't like their style and radical message. Then they build arguments to support their points that don't really hold water. That's all I was here for.

    G'night.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    People are eager to criticize anything PETA does because they don't like their style and radical message.
    Yes we are. But it's not like they did somethin' real bad twenty years ago, and we've been holding a grudge ever since. They never stop.

  10. #40
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    Are animals sentient creatures? It's really hard for me to believe. I'm not closing my mind completely to the possibility, but I want hard empirical evidence. The Peta Ad is a poor comparison.

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