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  1. #111
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Really. That's what would happen, eh? Interesting. I think that domesticated animals have been bred to accept and welcome their own slaughter, since those who were accepting and complacent about their own death would also be those that would procreate, passing their genes into future generations.
    Without getting into right and wrong, this is some pretty sick sounding shit. I sometimes have trouble telling whether you're joking or not, but you seem to believe what you're saying. Pretty awful, imo.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Without getting into right and wrong, this is some pretty sick sounding shit. I sometimes have trouble telling whether you're joking or not, but you seem to believe what you're saying. Pretty awful, imo.
    Why? If I had wrote that animals should be tortured before a humiliating death then that would have been 'sick sounding shit'. But if what I actually wrote was correct then the slaughter of animals for meat is actually far more benign than many people previously imagined. Indeed, many of the objections which vegetarians often have to the farming of animals for meat would carry far less weight, precisely because the situation would not have be 'sick' as they had thought.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #113
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Why? If I had wrote that animals should be tortured before a humiliating death then that would have been 'sick sounding shit'. But if what I actually wrote was correct then the slaughter of animals for meat is actually far more benign than many people previously imagined. Indeed, many of the objections which vegetarians often have to the farming of animals for meat would carry far less weight, precisely because the situation would not have be 'sick' as they had thought.
    I find your characterizing farm animals as suicidal by using evolutionary theory to frame some wild speculations about animal psychology to still be sick sounding shit.

  4. #114
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Really. That's what would happen, eh? Interesting. I think that domesticated animals have been bred to accept and welcome their own slaughter, since those who were accepting and complacent about their own death would also be those that would procreate, passing their genes into future generations. That's evolution, and that the selective pressure comes from generations of farmers makes no difference to the end result i.e. docile animals which--similar to many others--accept an early death to benefit their progeny. Turning them out into the harsh bosom of nature would be an act of cruelty and barbarity not unlike sending children into a warzone. Dispicable.
    Wait...how do you know that the animals are cognizant of their imminent deaths? Do they know about it beforehand? Do they contemplate their demise? And how does being slaughtered by farmers (or, as you put it, "accepting an early death") benefit the animal's progeny?
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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Wait...how do you know that the animals are cognizant of their imminent deaths? Do they know about it beforehand?
    I think what he's trying to say is that pigs and cows secretly organize parades and festivals to raise awareness, but they wear human costumes so we will be none the wiser.
    I don't wanna!

  6. #116
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    I think what he's trying to say is that pigs and cows secretly organize parades and festivals to raise awareness, but they wear human costumes so we will be none the wiser.
    I have the image of the pigs at the end of that one really shitty Animal Farm film adaptation in mind...the one where they're wearing clothes (one had a monocle) and drinking whiskey from bowls.
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  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I find your characterizing farm animals as suicidal by using evolutionary theory to frame some wild speculations about animal psychology to still be sick sounding shit.
    The idea that animals may behave suicidally for the benefit of their progeny is not unencountered in other contexts, such as spiders which are cannabilised by their offspring, mothers protecting their young, or the elderly who starve themselves to preserve resources for their children, etc. There are many people who go into war who think they will die and knowlingly accept their fate, often because they believe that their actions will protect their friends and family. The acceptence of death is often accompanied by a sense of duty, and perhaps that is the best way to characterise the idea I am proposing.

    The physiology and psychology of farmyard animals has been considerably altered by selection pressures exerted by preferences of farmers, not unlike how the psychology of wolves has been considerably altered in dogs (among other things, they are now preoccupied with serving human masters). When these precedents are considered, the argument which I am offerring is not that far fetched, even if it is unexpected.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Wait...how do you know that the animals are cognizant of their imminent deaths? Do they know about it beforehand? Do they contemplate their demise? And how does being slaughtered by farmers (or, as you put it, "accepting an early death") benefit the animal's progeny?
    The words you have quoted are taken out of context, though perhaps I could have been clearer. When I said that they 'accept an early death' I was anthropomorphising the DNA of cows, not necessarily referring to the mental state of any particular cow. The idea is that the cows genes prime the cow to accept death by making it an expected or okay experience, even though the cow may not be cognizant of exactly what is occurring. The genetic pay-off is that the farmer will breed those lineages which pose the least difficulty when being slaughtered, so the strategy actually works to produce more offspring in the long run.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  9. #119
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    The words you have quoted are taken out of context, though perhaps I could have been clearer. When I said that they 'accept an early death' I was anthropomorphising the DNA of cows, not necessarily referring to the mental state of any particular cow. The idea is that the cows genes prime the cow to accept death by making it an expected or okay experience, even though the cow may not be cognizant of exactly what is occurring.
    How do the "cows [sic] genes prime the cow to accept death by making it an okay experience"? Are you saying that because cows exhibit docile behavior (due to domestication by humans), we can interpret this as meaning that they willingly accept, in a psychological sense, their own deaths?
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  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    How do the "cows [sic] genes prime the cow to accept death by making it an okay experience"? Are you saying that because cows exhibit docile behavior (due to domestication by humans), we can interpret this as meaning that they willingly accept, in a psychological sense, their own deaths?
    No, you can interpret it however you like, though their behaviour is not wildly inconsistent with the idea that they accept their slaughter willingly. That is not enough to derive anything from, but then I never meant to derive anything from the behaviour of any particular animals. In any case, the genes would prime an animal to accept death by constructing the brain such that the experience of being slaughtered would not be something unexpected or to be feared, accepted as a duty or inevitable occurrence. As far as the genes are "concerned" this might be a very good strategy, since such docile and obedient behaviour would be preferred and selected by generations of farmers.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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