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  1. #101
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Ah, the high road! How lofty.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  2. #102
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    But my perspective is human.
    Of course, so is my perspective. My point is that even humans have different expectations, values and sensibilities from one another, and different species even more so. There are many things that other humans enjoy doing that from your 'perspective' may seem frightening, painful or disgusting, and yet do not from the perspective of others. The fact that you or the average human would not like being milked, slaughtered for food, sheared for wool or whatever, does not mean that animals have to feel the same way, especially animals which have been bred for generations for those purposes. There is much to be learned when we refrain from projecting our own evaluations into the minds of others, a principle commonly understood except when referring to those who cannot tell us that we have got it wrong.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #103
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Ah, the high road! How lofty.
    No way. I would have been a lot more patient and compassionate with you along the way if I were taking the high road. I'm just tired.

    You've out-argued an Irish woman, that's not easy. Points for tenacity!
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #104
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    I hear you.
    Hearing isn't always enough.

  5. #105
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    No way. I would have been a lot more patient and compassionate with you along the way if I were taking the high road. I'm just tired.

    You've out-argued an Irish woman, that's not easy. Points for tenacity!
    I feel very close to the Irish, as I mentioned to someone the other day on MBTIc.... shared colonial heritage, James Joyce, and Guinness...

    And I don't think I outargued you... there was a veritable sublimation of thesis and antithesis here.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  6. #106
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Hearing isn't always enough.
    What do you prescribe, doc?
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  7. #107
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Of course, so is my perspective. My point is that even humans have different expectations, values and sensibilities from one another, and different species even more so. There are many things that other humans enjoy doing that from your 'perspective' may seem frightening, painful or disgusting, and yet do not from the perspective of others. The fact that you or the average human would not like being milked, slaughtered for food, sheared for wool or whatever, does not mean that animals have to feel the same way, especially animals which have been bred for generations for those purposes. There is much to be learned when we refrain from projecting our own evaluations into the minds of others, a principle commonly understood except when referring to those who cannot tell us that we have got it wrong.
    But animals aren't aware of their 'species-hood'! I can't imagine they are... it seems from all available evidence that animals are generally very now-centered with some appreciation of the welfare of their kin, but they don't generalize into "species" thinking. I also think that an animal, given the choice, would walk away from a butcher's cleaver rather than towards it.

    Also, just because a cow has been bred as an animal-for-slaughter doesn't mean it enjoys being slaughtered! You're illegitimately leaping from the premise that an animal is bred for something by an external agent to the idea that the animal enjoys the process of its exploitation by that external agent.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  8. #108
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    What do you prescribe, doc?
    We share the same illness.

    I was hoping you had a recommendation...

  9. #109
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Oh my. We appear to be out of luck.
    Not more cowbell
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  10. #110
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    But animals aren't aware of their 'species-hood'! I can't imagine they are... it seems from all available evidence that animals are generally very now-centered with some appreciation of the welfare of their kin, but they don't generalize into "species" thinking. I also think that an animal, given the choice, would walk away from a butcher's cleaver rather than towards it.
    I think that you have misread, or perhaps I miswrote. No, I think that you misread. I did not suggest anywhere that animals generalise into species-thinking, and I don't think that I understand what that would mean even if I did write it.

    Also, just because a cow has been bred as an animal-for-slaughter doesn't mean it enjoys being slaughtered! You're illegitimately leaping from the premise that an animal is bred for something by an external agent to the idea that the animal enjoys the process of its exploitation by that external agent.
    No, Samuel. I am not "leaping" to anything, since there is nothing to leap to. Instead, I am offering a collection of propositions which describe and explain a possible situation--no "leaping" is necessary. Moreover, you have twisted my words. First, I have not stated that any animal would enjoy being slaughtered, and neither would that be necessary. There are many activites that organisms choose to do that are risky and painful, such as childbirth or offspring protection. In fact, I quite intentionally used words such as 'accepting' to avoid any connotation of enjoyment, though I had expected that someone would be all too eager to misinterpret my words. Second, if the argument I present here is correct then there is no "exploitation" occuring, and the relationship between domesticated animals and humans is mutualistic, not exploitative.

    The argument I provide here is for consideration. Though I find it interesting it has few practical consequences for me whether it is true or false, since my decision to eat animals is not contingent upon their attitude to being slaughtered. However, since your own apparently is the possibility is worth considering.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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