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  1. #91
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    This is admirable, SDM, and is certainly not a position to defend.

    To work to reduce pain is to actively seek a prevention of distress - both for oneself and others. Distress as instinctual awareness of discomfort - either as observed threats in one's environment and/or the oceanic, psychological burdens the tend to naturally accompany - and amplify - the former.

    Suffering and desire toxify into a natural fusion. The expression of this cooperation are the existential anxieties that have been noted to function in superposition to biological makeup. Dogs can fear. Penguins have been observed to "grieve". Humans need very little to weep.

    Emotion is evolved instinct - our present intellectual eminence is owed to our hereditary accuracy in its application.


    Protection is related to self-sacrifice. Commendable, SDM.

    I will have mercy and not sacrifice.
    What's commendable is how succinctly and thoroughly you put it, Sir Night.

    For your consideration, a sutra on the definition of a sutra:

    "alpaaksharam asandigdham saaravad vishvatomukham |
    astobhyam anavadyam ca sUtram sUtra vido viduh ||"

    "Minimal syllabary, unambiguous, pithy, addressing all that is pertinent,
    non-redundant and without error, this is what those who know the sutra understand the sutra to be."

    I think such a definition could be expanded to include any good writing.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  2. #92
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I think it's infinitely preferable for a family to be left to fend for itself in the jungles than for it to be enslaved, its children butchered for meat, living in substandard, unnatural conditions, for the rest of its line, bred over generations and generations to live out the same unfortunate existence repeatedly.
    The conditions are only 'unnatural' for animals which are not adapted to those conditions, and most domesticated animals have adapted to those conditions by generations through selective breeding. The 'unnatural' habitat for a cow is an uncultivated wilderness, without a fence or owner to protect them from the dangers which they have long since been unable to protect themselves. It may be that its children are butchered for meat, but the alternative is to have no children for the vast majority that you would tun out into the wild. The existence of domesticated animals is only 'unfortunate' if you adopt human expectations and sensibilities, for the majority of animals the unfortunate existence would be the one which you would cast them into, an existence which they are not adapted or prepared for.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #93
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    Ah, there there. Let me untwist those panties for you.
    glib again. It is amazing how much of my non-opinion you got from an expression of dietary preference in response to an expression of your dietary preference.
    I took it too seriously. And, I did lay out my reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I remember the post. It doesn't mean IF3157 doesn't have deeper reasoning for her (making an assumption on the proper pronoun to use here) dietary choices, simply that she isn't interested in laying them out for you at this time. That doesn't mean she isn't allowed to post in this thread. This is a forum on which people make irrelevant, offhand, jokey remarks instead of making substantive arguments all the time. It has been done on the abortion thread and countless other threads as well.

    Your argument is fine. Arguments, as you say, are rarely airtight and I actually agree with you for the most part on this. Actually, I usually agree with you- but you can sometimes present your arguments in such a way that I want to take the other side.
    I guess, as a T, I was hoping for some foundational premises to establish the preference. Yes, I love meat too... if I had no moral quandaries, I'd take well-cut sashimi over lentils any day... or beefsteak over eggplant... whatever...

    I know how jokes work, and I've been known to crack a few myself.

    As for arguments, I consider myself a philosophy acolyte, but know that my impatience with dialectic will probably result in my becoming a literary writer, as opposed to a philosophy writer. I could not do Spinoza or Heidegger, but I could see myself doing Conrad or Hemingway.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  4. #94
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    The conditions are only 'unnatural' for animals which are not adapted to those conditions, and most domesticated animals have adapted to those conditions by generations through selective breeding. The 'unnatural' habitat for a cow is an uncultivated wilderness, without a fence or owner to protect them from the dangers which they have long since been unable to protect themselves. It may be that its children are butchered for meat, but the alternative is to have no children for the vast majority that you would tun out into the wild. The existence of domesticated animals is only 'unfortunate' if you adopt human expectations and sensibilities, for the majority of animals the unfortunate existence would be the one which you would cast them into, an existence which they are not adapted or prepared for.
    But my perspective is human and while certain bovines wouldn't do well in the wild, I see a world where they aren't killed for their meat but still taken care of without detriment to human beings. There are people doing this for all sorts of other animals, like pandas, and most people seem to think it's alright to do so.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  5. #95
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I guess, as a T, I was hoping for some foundational premises to establish the preference.
    You can hope all you like but when you start demanding people will resist.

    Or maybe that's just me, I've been known to get a little combative about these things.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #96
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You can hope all you like but when you start demanding people will resist.

    Or maybe that's just me, I've been known to get a little combative about these things.
    I'm not demanding anything!
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  7. #97
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Just casting aspersions in the hopes that something surfaces.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  8. #98
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I give up. Uncle.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #99
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    Just casting aspersions in the hopes that something surfaces.
    Dude... I commented on how some arguments tended to be "if like then do and it's okay" and how your one-line post exemplified that. I didn't really make any judgments as to meat-eaters in general or even whether or not you in particular were a brainless meat-eater.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #100
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I give up. Uncle.
    I hear you.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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