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  1. #11
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    The problem with his idea is that ISIS's goal is to unite the Arab world in a fight against the invasion of foreign combatants in Muslim land. If we go in there, that gives them the affirmation they want. They want to be able to point to where Muhammed said that foreign fighters in the Holy Land is a big deal, and use that as the typical extremist justification for indiscriminate warfare on the West. But if Arabs are attacking them, they can't quote the Quran and spin it as a West vs Muslim fight. They have to go to the extra step of proclaiming an entire population of the Islamic world as not being Muslims, and that cuts into their success because nobody other than other extremists really will believe that. They won't convince Iran to attack Turkey by saying Turkey isn't Muslim.

    So no, even if ground troops are the tactical solution to beating them in a physical war, they win the PR war and it hurts us further down the line. Obama doesn't do a lot right, but getting Arab nations to spearhead the fight is absolutely the right thing to do, even if it's a harder fight at the moment for it. If terrorism were a fight that was 100% physical, we would have won it billions of dollars ago.
    Some good points.

    But not really sure ISIS gives a shit how they're allowed to spin something. I mean, they say they basically represent all muslims in the world. That'd be 1.5 billion. They're so batshit, that even fuckin' Al Queda has cut ties with them. That's pretty bad.

    And many Arab forces are so ill prepared, on top of being disillusioned with the corruption, so much so that much of the Iraqi Army have joined ISIS.

    And preemptive military measures against batshit, goddamn insane religious freaks that DO pose a threat to The Infidel (that's us) and allies abroad seems a tad more important than winning a PR campaign. Not that ISIS has that as it's main goal as they do some psychotic fantasy that they are going to radicalize the entire Muslim world population. Jus like the Taliban forcing women out of school, making them wear burkas, making men grow beards, and so on.


    Afghanistan before and after the Taliban. ISIS seems even worse. So don't kid yourselves, these are really really evil bad people.

    THIRD picture a tad graphic, but it was on the cover of Times.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    They were incredibly stupid to go in in the first place. They pulled out knowing this would probably happen, but it was a money/resources. The Lieutenant Colonel in the video said that Bush overcorrected with the amount of soldiers in Iraq (no shit) and Obama is under correcting.

    The U.S. military simply needs to follow the Middle Way of the Buddha.
    Rather ignorant to say if you know our history, as our middle east military involvement goes back into the 90's with a whole bunch of military action taken by Clinton. Most people associate the bad decisions under Clinton, read anything dealing with the Woolsey/Clinton Spat if you are curious. One of the bigger mistakes Clinton made Obama made sure to avoid. Essentially, 9/11 wasn't a random act that occurred at the beginning of the Bush presidency, the buildings have been attacked several times in the 90's, and for our earlier involvement.

    Prior to that, we were playing mediator between middle eastern countries with a focus on diplomacy (you don't make friends that way in honor based societies), and prior to that we were using/siding with the Muslims to fight Communists, which for the sack of winning the war we didn't care who was empowered. Thus out of guilt or shame, we slipped into the mediator role to fix some of it.

    Ignoring hindsight which is 20/20, and considering we just got out of a war with the region, given the toll and visuals of 9/11, you'd have to ignore a lot of face saving if some overt action wasn't taken, I'd even be curious what you think should have happen with 20/20 hindsight on 9/11 if you are willing to provide it.

    If I had to place the 3 largest errors in hindsight it would be

    1) Clinton's lack of commitment (enough to stir up the swarm but not enough to quell them)
    2) Bush's nation building while fighting (which takes a lot longer than just finishing it and then cleaning up)
    2) Obama's decision to pull out (reversing all the gains within the last 10+ years with a power vacuum)

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slate View Post
    Rather ignorant to say if you know our history, as our middle east military involvement goes back into the 90's with a whole bunch of military action taken by Clinton. Most people associate the bad decisions under Clinton, read anything dealing with the Woolsey/Clinton Spat if you are curious. One of the bigger mistakes Clinton made Obama made sure to avoid. Essentially, 9/11 wasn't a random act that occurred at the beginning of the Bush presidency, the buildings have been attacked several times in the 90's, and for our earlier involvement.

    Prior to that, we were playing mediator between middle eastern countries with a focus on diplomacy (you don't make friends that way in honor based societies), and prior to that we were using/siding with the Muslims to fight Communists, which for the sack of winning the war we didn't care who was empowered. Thus out of guilt or shame, we slipped into the mediator role to fix some of it.

    Ignoring hindsight which is 20/20, and considering we just got out of a war with the region, given the toll and visuals of 9/11, you'd have to ignore a lot of face saving if some overt action wasn't taken, I'd even be curious what you think should have happen with 20/20 hindsight on 9/11 if you are willing to provide it.

    If I had to place the 3 largest errors in hindsight it would be

    1) Clinton's lack of commitment (enough to stir up the swarm but not enough to quell them)
    2) Bush's nation building while fighting (which takes a lot longer than just finishing it and then cleaning up)
    2) Obama's decision to pull out (reversing all the gains within the last 10+ years with a power vacuum)
    What's ignorant? Saying invading an entire country with virtually no military bases or garrisons in the region is a bad idea?

    The solution after 9/11: I'm not sure as I don't know enough. But I believe that most terror cells were not operating in Iraq, but in Afghanistan and Pakistan and other middle eastern countries. Obviously, invading Pakistan and other sovereign countries with no immediate threat (Pakistan with nukes, mind you) was not an option (other reasons as well). And Afghanistan would have been another Vietnam, just as it was for Russia. In fact that's what the Afghanistan-Soviet war was called, Russia's Vietnam.

    Basically Iraq was a scapegoat for 9/11 and an attempt to gain a foothold in the region.

    One thing's for sure, it's bad news for a middle eastern country when radicals kill thousands of Americans on their own soil. Iraq, at the least, proved this. So in terms of causing terrorists to think twice about causing the U.S. harm, AND the countries that house terrorist cells, maybe it did have the intended affect of "don't fuck with us." Good or bad, I'm not here to argue morals.

    It's virtually impossible to rebuild a country. Have we ever? Democracies are built when the people want it. Iraq wanted a theocracy, or the people in power did/do.

    We just oust the least threatening dictator, or the one most likely to work with western countries.

    And rebuilding countries isn't our national policy, nor does it hold up with the majority of the people. It's a quagmire anyhow.

    The most we can hope to do (and our allies) is disrupt main supplies and heads of of terrorist groups. Or in the case of some south american countries, try to work with corrupt dictators, as we do not have the resources or power to make a country into a democracy. This worked for a while with Noriega, but he eventually used U.S. support to acquire absolute power over Panama. We eventually invaded and removed him. Replacing him with Guillermo Endara.

    Invasion might have been possible in Afghanistan, post 9/11, after we gave the mujahideen BILLIONS of dollars (thus funding Al Qaeda with our own money) during the Soviet-Afghan war, but the nature of the terrain would have been another duplicate of the war with the Soviets, involving endless fighting with guerillas.

    We continue to disrupt the Taliban there, however, so maybe slowly chipping away at them is the best solution, but putting a standing army there is not going to work as it is not traditional warfare. We also maintain decent diplomacy with most middle eastern countries, at least enough to keep them from allowing gross expansion of terrorist cells and ICBMs with nuclear warheads (Iran is a little scary).
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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  4. #14
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    Where did ISIS come from, and why are they still around? Where does all this bullshit come from, and why is it supported, rather than gutted from society?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baccheion View Post
    Where did ISIS come from,
    Turkey. Great Britain. Other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by baccheion View Post
    and why are they still around?
    Saudi Arabia.

    Quote Originally Posted by baccheion View Post
    Where does all this bullshit come from, and why is it supported, rather than gutted from society?
    The Saudis are only interested in one thing: maintaining their power in the Middle East. If ISIS becomes a threat to that power, then they will be "gutted from society." Or at least the Saudis will attempt to do this.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #16
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    ^

    Isn't the Saudi Monarchy threatened by ISIS?
    .

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    ^

    Isn't the Saudi Monarchy threatened by ISIS?
    It feels moderately threatened by ISIS. And they expect the rest of the world to save them.
    Billionaire Saudi prince on ISIS and Obama - Video - Business News
    "Major international investor Prince Al Awleed hopes that 'the world community will me more united' in fighting ISIS, but does not expect Saudi Arabia military intervention."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    It feels moderately threatened by ISIS. And they expect the rest of the world to save them.
    Billionaire Saudi prince on ISIS and Obama - Video - Business News
    "Major international investor Prince Al Awleed hopes that 'the world community will me more united' in fighting ISIS, but does not expect Saudi Arabia military intervention."
    Oil Sultans get what they want.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  9. #19
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    We should have armed the Kurdish resistance many months ago. It's comical how we always seem to be reacting to rather than anticipating scenarios. Put me in charge and this war would be over by now and yes, I'd use nukes.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #20
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Unless I missed something, U.S. still has no plans of putting boots on the ground in this conflict.
    I could've have sworn I read somewhere that there were still ground troops in Iraq.

    Very well then, does it make a difference that they want to put ground troops there?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    "According to Iraqi papers" is as relevant as "According to the National Inquirer."
    But, oh wise one, with much COMMON SENSE, you need to be fed from both sources of propaganda to understand THE TRUTH.

    And, tell me, oh wise one, how big is ISIS?

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