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  1. #31
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I have two examples of successful travel bans in preventing infectious disease outbreaks:

    Between September 1918 and April 1919, approximately 500,000 to 675,000 deaths from the flu occurred in the US alone. Western Samoa and Iceland avoided the 1918 flu entirely through the use of travel restrictions.
    1918 Spanish Influenza Pandemic
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.
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  2. #32
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It's my understanding that Nigeria has achieved some measure of success in stopping ebola outbreaks by closing their border. What empirical evidence is there that a travel ban will actually increase the incidence of an infectious disease?

    I don't fly so I don't know how easy it is to get passports into the USA. Am I to understand that one can just hop over to another country, lie about the country of origin and get a passport? If that's the case, then that's a problem that needs to get fixed.
    Nigeria is a country in the same continent where this outbreak took place. The U.S. is a country on the other side of the planet. A few routes that can be taken, if one were adamant, was to go to a country that isn't banned or does not have strong travel restrictions. The U.S. is only banning countries that are known to be infected, to be truly "secure" the U.S. would need to ban all possible countries in Africa and possibly a few neighboring areas from Africa to feel reasonably safe.

    Nigeria is a geographical location, The U.S. is a geographical location..... it isn't a high security building. A better comparison is that it isn't North and South Korea. These geographical encompasses other geographical locations linked to other countries without seas. To be reasonably safe from "total infection" Nigeria and a list of African countries will have to border their countries without naturally occurring obstacles.

    While not relevant to diseases, how effective has it been to stop the influx of immigrants from South America to the U.S? How effective has anti-immigration procedures has been to stop the influx of people trying to get into the U.S. from Europe or Asia whether "legally" or "illegally" in the 19th and early 20th century? That is how effective such travel ban/restrictions have been.

    While travel bans have been reasonably effective in limiting the amount of influx a population can get in or out, it does not negate it.

    EDIT: Typos....

  3. #33
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I don't fly so I don't know how easy it is to get passports into the USA. Am I to understand that one can just hop over to another country, lie about the country of origin and get a passport? If that's the case, then that's a problem that needs to get fixed.
    To get a US passport, you must be a citizen.

    If you are not a citizen, you must get a visa, which varies depending on your purpose of coming here - tourism, work, etc (and possibly which country you are from? I hate to say that but I think it might be true )

    Your passport will be from whichever country you are a citizen of, issued by that government.

    Are you American?
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  4. #34
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    To get a US passport, you must be a citizen.

    If you are not a citizen, you must get a visa, which varies depending on your purpose of coming here - tourism, work, etc (and possibly which country you are from? I hate to say that but I think it might be true )

    Your passport will be from whichever country you are a citizen of, issued by that government.

    Are you American?
    Travel into the US is not easy for many people. It's one of those things we take for granted as much of the world is open to us americans with just a simple tourist visa upon entry (though there are very large exceptions including Russia, India, Brazil, and China).

    United States of America travel guide - Wikitravel

    The United States has exceptionally onerous and complicated visa requirements. Read up carefully before your visit, especially if you need to apply for a visa, and consult the US State Department’s Bureau of Consular Affairs. Travellers have been refused entry for many reasons, often trivial.

    There is no airside transit without US entry between international flights. All travellers must disembark and proceed through immigration and customs inspection to enter the United States, even if you're only staying for the two to four hours required to transit between flights. This is most relevant if you're transiting between Asia or Europe to/from Latin America. Therefore, all travellers must be able to enter the United States on the Visa Waiver Program (or other visa exemption) or obtain a visitor's (B1 or B2) or transit (C1) visa.

    Law and bureaucracy
    The US federal government has five separate agencies with jurisdiction over visitors.

    The most important one from a visitor's perspective is Customs and Border Protection (CBP), a bureau of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The CBP's Office of Field Operations operates 20 Field Operations offices which supervise immigration and customs inspection stations at over 320 ports of entry. All travellers entering the United States must undergo immigration and customs inspection to ensure lawful entry. All US citizens and nationals and visitors who can qualify for the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) (as explained further below) generally encounter only CBP officers.

    If you cannot enter the US through the VWP, you must visit a US Embassy or Consulate in your home country to apply for and obtain a visa, which will often require a short visa interview with a US consular officer. US Embassies and Consulates are operated by the Bureau of Consular Affairs of the US Department of State.

    If you attempt to unlawfully cross a US land border at any other point besides a port of entry, you may encounter the U.S. Border Patrol, which is also part of CBP.

    If you attempt to unlawfully come ashore in the US from a body of water at any other point besides a port of entry, you may encounter the U.S. Coast Guard, which is normally part of DHS (but can operate as part of the Department of Defense in wartime).

    Finally, if you unlawfully enter the US, commit a severe crime in the US, or overstay your visa, you will likely encounter officers from the division of Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO) of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), another DHS bureau. ICE operates a gigantic system of immigration detention facilities. Strict compliance with US law during your stay is strongly recommended. ICE is frequently criticized by human rights organizations like Amnesty International for ongoing problems with substandard healthcare and human rights violations.

    Planning and pre-arrival documentation
    Visa-free entry
    Citizens of the 38 countries within the Visa Waiver Program, as well as Canadians, Mexicans living on the border (holding a Border Crossing Card), and Bermudians (with British Overseas Territories passports) do not require advance visas for entry into the United States.

    For Canadians and Bermudians, the entry period is normally for a maximum of six months. However, entry may still be refused on the basis of a criminal record. Those who have criminal records should seek out a US embassy for advice on whether they need a visa.

    For travellers under the Visa Waiver Program, the entry period is strictly limited to 90 days (see additional requirements below).

    As of March 2014, the countries under the Visa Waiver Program are Andorra, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brunei, Chile, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan and the United Kingdom.

    Citizens of the Federated States of Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, and Palau may enter, reside, study, and work in the US indefinitely with only a valid passport.

    Citizens of the Bahamas may apply for visa-free entry only at the US Customs pre-clearance facilities in the Bahamas, but a valid police certificate may be required for those over the age of 14. Attempting to enter through any other port of entry requires a valid visa.

    Persons holding a passport from the Cayman Islands, if they intend to travel directly to the US from there, may obtain a single-entry visa waiver for about $25 prior to departure.
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  5. #35
    Problem? Grand Admiral Crunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Here is the thing. While Ebola is contagious, it isn't airborne like a few strains of Smallpox (unless, by some miracle in the future, it mutates to become airborne,) which limits things to bodily fluids (like Urine, blood, stools, and such.)
    There's a lot of unknowns with this disease.

    WHO contradicts CDC, admits Ebola can spread via coughing, sneezing, touching contaminated surfaces


    And honestly, I'd rather know that people are willing to have themselves tested before coming over here than have people forcing themselves, whether knowingly or not, with Ebola. Travel Bans make desperate people come over, whether they are infected or not, and it causes problems as this is one area control should be given for.
    What people are having themselves tested?.....I think I read that US passport issuance has already increased in Liberia. And they can come to US and mingle with the general population as they please.

    A complete ban on travel allows for too many uncontrolled variables. Some of them already mentioned here.....What countries will this infected person try to get into to avoid this ban and make it look like he/she has the common cold or fever? Will it spread far and wide because people aren't willing to get screened of the virus?
    I don't know what countries they'll go to, but it'd be a lot harder to get to the US if commercial flights were stopped altogether.

  6. #36
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    I just read on CDC website. If abstinence is not possible use a condom. When is abstinence not possible?
    Im out, its been fun
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  7. #37
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Thought this was a useful detailed experiential view of the Hazmat suit donning/doffing process:
    I'm a Hazmat-Trained Hospital Worker: Here's What No One Is Telling You About Ebola*|*Abby Norman
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  8. #38
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer
    The U.S. is only banning countries that are known to be infected, to be truly "secure" the U.S. would need to ban all possible countries in Africa and possibly a few neighboring areas from Africa to feel reasonably safe.
    I'm not aiming for perfection here, just a reduction in risk.

    While not relevant to diseases, how effective has it been to stop the influx of immigrants from South America to the U.S?
    We haven't tried to stop the influx; one party supports open borders and the other party wants cheap labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit
    Are you American?
    Yes. I just prefer to travel by foot or by car, so I've never gotten a passport.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Heard some figure on NPR this morning who made a pretty good analogy. If your house is on fire, the best course of action is to go extinguish the blaze. Sealing off borders is like putting wet towels in the crack under your door.

    Travel bans simply don't work. People always find a way to get where they want to go.

    Why travel bans will only make the Ebola epidemic worse - Vox

    There are three reasons why it's a crazy idea. The first is that it just won't work to stop the virus. The weeks following 9/11, when people stopped getting on planes, provided influenza researchers with a natural experiment in what a travel ban might do to viral spread. They found it didn't stop influenza from moving, it only delayed flu season by a couple of weeks.

    Writing in the Washington Post, Laurie Garrett — senior fellow for global health at the Council on Foreign Relations — pointed out: "Many nations have banned flights from other countries in recent years in hopes of blocking the entry of viruses, including SARS and H1N1 'swine flu,'" she added. "None of the bans were effective, and the viruses gained entry to populations regardless of what radical measures were taken to keep them out."

    In CDC Director Tom Freiden's words, "Even when governments restrict travel and trade, people in affected countries still find a way to move and it is even harder to track them systematically." In other words, determined people will find a way to cross borders anyway, but unlike at airports, we can't track their movements.
    The second reason a travel ban won't work is that it would actually make stopping the outbreak in West Africa more difficult. Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said, "To completely seal off and don't let planes in or out of the West African countries involved, then you could paradoxically make things much worse in the sense that you can't get supplies in, you can't get help in, you can't get the kinds of things in there that we need to contain the epidemic."

    Some have suggested a half-measure: close borders allowing exceptions for doctors, aid workers, and medical supplies only. The problem with this idea is that responses to humanitarian crises are not well-organized affairs. They're chaos. A bureaucratic regime that systematically screens who can go in and out of affected countries would only slow down or make impossible the much-needed relief. Plus, many aid workers — like reserve staff for Doctors Without Borders — would be responsible for booking their own tickets to get to the affected region. How would they do this then? And how long would it take to get them over there?

    The third reason closing borders is nuts is that it will devastate the economies of West Africa and further destroy the limited health systems there. The World Bank already estimates this outbreak could cost West African economies up to $33 billion. That's a lot for any country, but especially when you're talking about some of the world's poorest. World Health Organization director Margaret Chan reminded us that 90 percent of any outbreak's economic costs "come from irrational and disorganized efforts of the public to avoid infection."
    The most ironic thing about all of this "travel ban" talk is that the people calling for them are the people who typically call for "free market" solutions. A travel ban is the opposite of a "free market" solution. Government bureaucracies are terribly inefficient and incompetent things, yet you want to trust them with this? LOL
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."
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  10. #40
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus
    Travel bans simply don't work. People always find a way to get where they want to go.
    This is a false statement. Iceland and Western Samoa avoided the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic using a travel ban. Nigeria has avoided an ebola outbreak by closing its borders.

    "None of the bans were effective, and the viruses gained entry to populations regardless of what radical measures were taken to keep them out."
    This is the "If it's not perfection, then it's worthless" argument. What's the incidence of SARS in nations that have a travel ban vs nations that don't have a travel ban; that is the question.

    The most ironic thing about all of this "travel ban" talk is that the people calling for them are the people who typically call for "free market" solutions.
    No irony here. This is a national security issue and a proper role for government.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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