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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    good riddance

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Right.

    Two things though, 1st thing) The first theory I listed has nothing to do with hunting or neoteny but explains how gray wolves speciated due to contact with human settlements. 2nd thing) I think it's interesting how the foxes began to evolve physically based simply on selecting for "temperment", which is not necessarily related to rhinos
    It verifies observations of differences between wolves and dogs, such as the smaller brain pan of the dog.
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  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Check out the evolution of dogs specifically The promise of food/self-domestication theory. This is an example of speciation due to human pressure on the environment/habitat. The silver fox experiment is also interesting and while the foxes were only selected for tameness began to show a pattern of physical changes LiveLeak.com - Evolution in Action: The Silver Fox Experiment.
    Holy shit:
    As Lyudmila Trut says in her 1999 American Scientist article [1], The least domesticated foxes, those that flee from experimenters or bite when stroked or handled, are assigned to Class III. Foxes in Class II let themselves be petted and handled but show no emotionally friendly response to experimenters. Foxes in Class I are friendly toward experimenters, wagging their tails and whining. In the sixth generation bred for tameness we had to add an even higher-scoring category. Members of Class IE, the "domesticated elite," are eager to establish human contact, whimpering to attract attention and sniffing and licking experimenters like dogs. They start displaying this kind of behavior before they are one month old. By the tenth generation, 18 percent of fox pups were elite; by the 20th, the figure had reached 35 percent. Today elite foxes make up 70 to 80 percent of our experimentally selected population.
    Yeah, what's that? 40 years? (I think they started in 1959.)
    That's not very long at all in the scheme of speciation.

    Also, as you alluded to:

    Some important changes in physiology and morphology are now visible, such as mottled or spotted colored fur. Many scientists believe that these changes related to selection for tameness are caused by lower adrenaline production in the new breed, causing physiological changes in very few generations and thus yielding genetic combinations not present in the original species. This indicates that selection for tameness (i.e. low flight distance) produces changes that are also influential on the emergence of other "dog-like" traits, such as raised tail and coming into heat every six months rather than annually.
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  4. #14
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    That's a good study for demonstrating artificial selection of individual species. This however has been known for millennia. Hunting on the other hand is not a form of artificial selection.
    Actually it is artificial selection in many places now days.

    This is why tags are required to hunt. The DNR calculates what needs to be culled to balance a herd or population and will put up a predetermined limited number of tags for sale for a given season.

    In fact the whole purpose of hunting is really conservation. In some places there's even talk of selecting males to promote large trophy antlers in ruminant species.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Actually it is artificial selection in many places now days.

    This is why tags are required to hunt. The DNR calculates what needs to be culled to balance a herd or population and will put up a predetermined limited number of tags for sale for a given season.

    In fact the whole purpose of hunting is really conservation. In some places there's even talk of selecting males to promote large trophy antlers in ruminant species.
    The purpose of hunting is not conservation, the purpose of conservation is to limit hunting.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    The purpose of hunting is not conservation, the purpose of conservation is to limit hunting.
    No the purpose of conservation is to limit poaching and aid the survival of the species. When the DNR - that's Department of Natural Resources - determines that part of a heard needs to be culled, they issue tags to let hunters hunt authorized animals. Taking otherwise protected animals is illegal. a.k.a. poaching.

    Edit: And besides if they weren't interested in conservation they wouldn't even bother making people get tags. What's the point? Taxes? Well why limit the number then.

  7. #17
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    That's a shame. I would be upset if this was due to hunting/humans getting in the way but if this happened without humans getting in the way then it's just sad.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    That's a shame. I would be upset if this was due to hunting/humans getting in the way but if this happened without humans getting in the way then it's just sad.
    It's largely a result of poaching. Poachers slip in and kill illegally, either for profit or just for the sake of killing. Rhino horns were incredibly valuable so greedy people killed them off in spite of efforts to protect them.

    People have been allowed on rare occasions to hunt rhino for extremely expensive price tags on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars but for the most part this was illegal hunting which is actually poaching.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    It's largely a result of poaching. Poachers slip in and kill illegally, either for profit or just for the sake of killing. Rhino horns were incredibly valuable so greedy people killed them off in spite of efforts to protect them.

    People have been allowed on rare occasions to hunt rhino for extremely expensive price tags on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars but for the most part this was illegal hunting which is actually poaching.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    ................



    I HATE PEOPLE
    Yeah they give hunters a bad name.

    Most good hunters don't want to wipe out a species but rather they contribute a lot to conservation. Several deer species in the US have gone from threatened to booming populations because hunters did not want them to die off.

    Real hunters want to hunt and they can't do that if there's no animals left. Whether it's for food or trophies you can't do it regardless if you wipe them out.

    Rest assured though that people still do care. The rhinos are unfortunately hard to regulate because they live in the open and are easy to spot and just swoop in with a truck or whatever, kill it, cut the horn and escape before they get caught. Some times the animal is not even completely dead yet and they leave it there. That's not hunting.

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