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  1. #31
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    so do we in general cover up discussion of motive or not? do criminals have a right to their own story, and do we have a right to say that we can simply ignore it? what about when we use our estimation of motive to make predictions about other potentially connected or even simply similar criminal intentions? what about when we want to know what really happened (even if our mainstream media-space is totally unequipped to lead us on this process)?
    We don't cover up anything, but we don't emphasize the sensational and often speculative elements of a crime, as our media currently do, perhaps just in the hopes of better ratings/more viewers. Criminals have no more right to their own story than you or I do. They certainly are not entitled to some bully pulpit in the media simply as a result of having committed a crime.

    Reportage should include relevant and substantiated information. Mentioning a suspect's religion just for the sake of it, for instance, is just sensationalism. Now if the suspect called out something religious before shooting a victim, or the police turn up religious hate videos in his apartment, it becomes relevant. Religiously motivated terrorist groups are just another form of organized crime, and can be addressed domestically using the same law enforcement tools.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #32
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We don't cover up anything, but we don't emphasize the sensational and often speculative elements of a crime, as our media currently do, perhaps just in the hopes of better ratings/more viewers. Criminals have no more right to their own story than you or I do. They certainly are not entitled to some bully pulpit in the media simply as a result of having committed a crime.

    Reportage should include relevant and substantiated information. Mentioning a suspect's religion just for the sake of it, for instance, is just sensationalism. Now if the suspect called out something religious before shooting a victim, or the police turn up religious hate videos in his apartment, it becomes relevant. Religiously motivated terrorist groups are just another form of organized crime, and can be addressed domestically using the same law enforcement tools.
    Would you be making the same arguments if it was a white person lynching a black person?
    In both cases you can connect the method to the person's presumed ideology/viewpoint or is this different in some way?
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  3. #33
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Correlation versus causation...

    From what I can tell of the history, it looks like this guy has had a number of previous offenses, as well as having been passed over on a request for parole, prior to him recently converting to Islam, and the attack occurred very soon after he lost his job - according to a CNN report from two days ago, she was one of the first people he encountered after leaving the office.

    Did his newfound religion feed into his ideas of how to kill someone, and maybe even who he decided to kill? Probably. Did Islam as a theoretical construct motivate him to kill this woman? Given his past, I am more inclined to judge that what religious extremism he may have exhibited is probably more a symptom of his own personal unhealth than his personal unhealth being a symptom of his religious extremism. Thus it's unfortunate that, as Coriolis points out, the media has blown this issue into being about his religion.

    It's particularly frustrating and disheartening for two reasons: First, the real motivators of his action probably lie much more deeply in his psyche and in his past, and if we want to avoid situations like this in the future, it is worth figuring out how to prevent people from heading down paths like his. "Fundamentalists are bad" is not the answer in this case, and that's going to do nothing to prevent future murders like this one. Secondly, the US has such high tension regarding Islam, and continually painting the religion as a hotbed of violence is not only misunderstanding and demonizing it, but it also lessens what hope we have of dealing respectfully and non-aggressively with the cultures for whom it plays a major role in politics, philosophy, and daily life.

    What would be interesting to ask, on the other hand, is why did this man turn to fundamentalist Islam as an outlet? People who turn to fundamentalism typically are seeking structure, comfort, direction. They are typically willing to sacrifice self. How did he link up with this community of others feeling the same way? What community resources can we develop that would meet a similar need for people like him while discouraging violence? If he had turned to a different mosque or different Muslim teachers, could he have been turned on a different path, towards healing and non-violence instead?

  4. #34
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    If he had turned to a different mosque or different Muslim teachers, could he have been turned on a different path, towards healing and non-violence instead?
    Salafism is a major part of Islam. Salafism is the form of Islamic religion practised in Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam.

    And it beggars belief to think that Islamic Salafism will turn towards healing and non-violence.

  5. #35
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I want to applaud the boss/manager for having enough sense to arm himself. He very likely prevented a 2nd beheading by shooting the criminal. This story also underscores the risk involved in hiring ex-felons; give a guy a 2nd chance and he beheads a co-worker.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #36
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Would you be making the same arguments if it was a white person lynching a black person?
    In both cases you can connect the method to the person's presumed ideology/viewpoint or is this different in some way?
    What argument - that reporting about crimes should focus on the facts of the matter, and that murder is just as much a crime, regardless of who is the victim and who the perpetrator? If so, then absolutely.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #37
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    food for thought


  8. #38
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Salafism is a major part of Islam.
    How so?

    Are you looking at it from the perspective of the world's Muslim population who practice Islam? I just want to know what made you reach this conclusion.

  9. #39
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    food for thought
    Gabrielle makes some good points but she doesn't really address the woman's question, which was actually about how to address the ideological context.

    I saw an interesting article about this ideological battle, trying to identify patterns in extremism as they are forming rather than when it turns to action. I have no idea if it will be successful or not, but it is the first program of this type (inter-disciplinary/community-based?) I've noticed attempting to do that, within America at least. But I'm definitely not the most informed person on the topic so there probably have been many others too.

    The FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force and local law enforcement have launched numerous initiatives since the Sept 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, all of which are aimed at forging partnerships with the Muslim community and various community and religious groups.

    The latest initiative will bring law enforcement, educators, mental health and public health professionals, and religious and community leaders together in an effort to share information, according to Marc Raimondi, a Justice Department spokesman.

    “The intent is to identify and confront radicalization and deter it at the earliest possible point,” Raimondi said.
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