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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The whole story is pretty complicated.
    Not at all. And yes I read your entire post. It's as simple as this: Obama withdrew troops from Iraq too early - way too early - based on the utter arbitrary lie that "we're leaving behind a stable and self-reliant Iraq." When Isis invaded, Obama sat on his thumbs and said that the world has always had its problems. Obama has been forced to take action, but now he is forced to choose between full-scale invasion and limited bombing runs. Obama's politics won't allow a full-scale invasion, so he has opted for the limited bombing method - which has never, ever worked.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Not at all. And yes I read your entire post. It's as simple as this: Obama withdrew troops from Iraq too early - way too early - based on the utter arbitrary lie that "we're leaving behind a stable and self-reliant Iraq." When Isis invaded, Obama sat on his thumbs and said that the world has always had its problems. Obama has been forced to take action, but now he is forced to choose between full-scale invasion and limited bombing runs. Obama's politics won't allow a full-scale invasion, so he has opted for the limited bombing method - which has never, ever worked.
    I can't say I agree. He should have withdrawn faster and stayed out. You can say limited bombing doesn't work, but I'm not sure what that's supposed to be compared to. What we were doing in Iraq before? Some work.

    Regarding military strategy in general, if not this specific situation, doing limited bombing combined with some other coalition putting boots on the ground can work.

    The thing that seems to be bothering so many Americans is the fact that if this situation is ever going to be resolved, it is going to be resolved primarily by regional powers. Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia either get their shit together, or the problem remains.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I can't say I agree. He should have withdrawn faster and stayed out. You can say limited bombing doesn't work, but I'm not sure what that's supposed to be compared to. What we were doing in Iraq before? Some work.

    Regarding military strategy in general, if not this specific situation, doing limited bombing combined with some other coalition putting boots on the ground can work.

    The thing that seems to be bothering so many Americans is the fact that if this situation is ever going to be resolved, it is going to be resolved primarily by regional powers. Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia either get their shit together, or the problem remains.
    Getting out earlier would have led to the same result. I agree in the sense that the Middle East countries just want the US to wipe their collective ass for them.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Getting out earlier would have led to the same result. I agree in the sense that the Middle East countries just want the US to wipe their collective ass for them.
    Would have cost us less.

    And you don't agree with me, because I don't think the Middle East actually wants that. The different states there have different interests, and none of them are to be under the USA's umbrella, though some may periodically exploit US assistance. Really, it's just the oil sultanates that want that.

    What I would like to see is exactly how the regional powers will negotiate their differences if left to themselves. We don't know, because leaving them to themselves is the one policy the industrialized west has never done.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Would have cost us less.

    And you don't agree with me, because I don't think the Middle East actually wants that. The different states there have different interests, and none of them are to be under the USA's umbrella, though some may periodically exploit US assistance. Really, it's just the oil sultanates that want that.

    What I would like to see is exactly how the regional powers will negotiate their differences if left to themselves. We don't know, because leaving them to themselves is the one policy the industrialized west has never done.
    They need to "get their shit together," as you said. They expect the US to do it for them, i.e., "exploit US assistance." Even Saudi Arabia considers Isis to be a threat.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    They need to "get their shit together," as you said. They expect the US to do it for them, i.e., "exploit US assistance." Even Saudi Arabia considers Isis to be a threat.
    I do not think they expect the US to do it form them. If they did, they would have been warmer to the idea of the USA occupying Iraq. Chucking some bombs at ISIS is no where close to doing all the work that needs to be done for that region, and again, none of them want us to try doing that work.

    There is a vicious and almost paranoid hatred of western colonialism in the Middle East. It really makes no sense to think they want to be our dependencies.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I do not think they expect the US to do it form them. If they did, they would have been warmer to the idea of the USA occupying Iraq. Chucking some bombs at ISIS is no where close to doing all the work that needs to be done for that region, and again, none of them want us to try doing that work.

    There is a vicious and almost paranoid hatred of western colonialism in the Middle East. It really makes no sense to think they want to be our dependencies.
    As I recall, there has been a little military cooperation so far.

    "Colonialism" is just one of those dirty words they whisper in dark places. And it's a different topic. If so-called "developing countries" truly want to develop, colonialism is their best bet.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    As I recall, there has been a little military cooperation so far.
    Yes, that's correct. What's your point? The regional politics right now is both tense and awkward. It's not alien, though, it was very similar in Europe not all that long ago. Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia all definitely have reasons to fight ISIS, but they all have problems with each other. But all of this is their problem. They have to fix it. Not only can the west not fix this, we can only manage to delay its resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    "Colonialism" is just one of those dirty words they whisper in dark places. And it's a different topic. If so-called "developing countries" truly want to develop, colonialism is their best bet.
    Colonialism is a very real part of their history that forged much of the realities of the situation today. It can't be forgotten, and they remember it bitterly.

    Second, did you just endorse colonialism?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, that's correct. What's your point? The regional politics right now is both tense and awkward. It's not alien, though, it was very similar in Europe not all that long ago. Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia all definitely have reasons to fight ISIS, but they all have problems with each other. But all of this is their problem. They have to fix it. Not only can the west not fix this, we can only manage to delay its resolution.

    Colonialism is a very real part of their history that forged much of the realities of the situation today. It can't be forgotten, and they remember it bitterly.

    Second, did you just endorse colonialism?

    The point is that ISIS is a threat to the US as well as other nations. And in fact ISIS is making direct threats. Whether those threats are viable or not would be a moot point.

    I endorse nothing like British colonialism which means there is a governmental and military presence. But if these "developing nations" want to develop, this will require capitalism, i.e., economic colonialism. Since capitalism is pretty much reviled around the world, as well as all forms of colonialism, the idea that they are 'developing nations' is just a sick joke designed to make these countries seem better than they are thus worthy of foreign assistance.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
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