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Thread: The Police Misconduct Thread

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slate View Post
    Perhaps I am not familiar with the culture of the political section on this forum, which might explain my gap in understanding this. From what you're saying, the goal of the thread is not discussion and or debate (which I usually assume a pro/con side), but just a string of videos of particular incidents without advocating anything?
    Well, threads are open discussions, and OPs do not own threads; and so people are free to comment however they wanna comment. Even if they don't necessarily start as debates. If it turns into a debate, sure; nothing wrong with that.

    The rest is semantics, really; I just wanted to clarify what I think: that I recognize the importance of finding out whether there's a problem; and, if so, of also fixing it; but that I wasn't really doing so here in this thread.
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  2. #82
    Senior Member Array Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slate View Post
    Perhaps I am not familiar with the culture of the political section on this forum, which might explain my gap in understanding this. From what you're saying, the goal of the thread is not discussion and or debate (which I usually assume a pro/con side), but just a string of videos of particular incidents without advocating anything?

    Considering I didn't think anybody agreed with police misconduct, I made assumptions it was debate oriented around a particular action. In which case, I didn't mean to deride the thread, I automatically assume it was an informal debate which I was pointing out that the larger data should be the focal point and not media/stories.

    My "Proponents of the thread" was my catch all for whatever policy was advocated, with my previous posts trying to get you guys to clarify the taken position(s), when I was under the impression that there was a debate going on and thus a pro side.

    Anyways, thanks for clarifying that
    Lots of people think police misconduct is "not a big deal", many posting in this and other related threads. They think we shouldn't get riled about it because the system will fix it. They want us to bow our heads and shut up about it because "police work is dangerous" or whatever. I disagree. I don't think the system will fix this problem on its own. If people didn't complain, the police would continue to abuse their power indefinitely.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Array Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Teachers absolutely do investigate themselves, they're all in a union. I used to work in their ranks too, I cannot tell you how much stupid shit you see in those ranks. The BON for nurses is made up of, surprise, nurses. Doctors have boards made up of other doctors.

    No one is 100% self regulated. Lawyers, laws, other agencies, etc. All make up part of those processes.
    Teachers investigate themselves when they are accused of a crime? I don't think so. The same goes for doctors and nurses. They might investigate other profession-related issues, but they don't investigate their own crimes. Only the police do that.

    Compared to the entire population of cops? Absolutely I disagree. Like I said, if you look at the over 2000 nurses up for the board to chop their license every year it's a LOT.. that's JUST in one state. That's not other states. One. A lot of stupid nurses making stupid mistakes. But that is NOT the entire population, or even a majority of it. And it wasn't a bunch of nurses corrupt all the way through the chain of command either. And sure there's stupid stuff no one sees all the time. But the stats don't lie, and that's still a very tiny percentage of corruption that you just cannot avoid. And, like I said.. Nurses were voted the MOST trusted profession. MOST. Honesty/Ethics in Professions | Gallup Historical Trends Overwhelmingly people trust nurses and what they say and do..
    Show me that nurses, as a group, have the ability to undermine confidence in government (which should be treason, IMO) and I'll get on that bandwagon too.

    I mean, if you use drugs or distribute them I'm sure you would feel that way. I haven't had that experience at all.
    What are you accusing me of?

    Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Array Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I'm fairly certain that the police are NOT the governing body that makes and enacts Laws. The War on Drugs and the laws that support it, I'm pretty sure that happens, geez, I wanna say Washington D.C.?

    I could be wrong. Maybe it's the Baltimore Police Department.
    Congress passes laws and regulations based upon the recommendations of the police. The police also have a powerful lobby, not as powerful as Wall Street, but still pretty powerful.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Array Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    It's already been established in past threads that you're anti-police. It's a waste of time to argue these kinds of questions with someone who doesn't even respect or find necessary the core job of law enforcement.
    Nope, I'm anti-corruption. It just happens to be the case that the police are corrupt, so it appears to you that I am anti-police. The reason there is so much corruption is because there are a massive lack of accountability.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Array Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    It is not my job to critique or judge an officer who uses his firearm in the line of duty. That is left to those who are paid, trained and have the resources to fully investigate each particular incident by looking at the facts and interviewing the parties involved/witnesses. That doesn't mean I automatically endorse an officer's judgment to use deadly force in every given situation, but I wasn't there and I wasn't personally faced with each component that led to the officer's decision to pull the trigger. Based off of that video, I do not believe it was malicious (and I don't think there's much of an argument to support that it would be) because anyone can see behaviors from the person being stopped that would cause a reasonable officer to take a defensive posture... but did it go too far? Quite possibly, but that is not my judgment to make. I don't believe I ever said that it would be asinine or wrong for that officer to end up being charged/disciplined for that incident, but you're not going to see me getting involved in the all-too-common circus of posting those videos and partaking in the character assassination that follows.
    You are effectively saying that it's not your job to critique the performance of your government.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Array Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Seriously, what is the purpose of this thread?
    It's pretty obvious what the purpose of this thread is. It's to bring incidents of police misconduct to peoples' attention. But some people starting whining about that, so it has turned into a really crappy "debate" where people are just slinging insults (your post is a great example of the crap).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    What can be done besides firing officers that are not worthy of the badge (which apparently seems to be a big ask)?
    Well, Minneapolis has a creative solution they're trying out whereby they're forcing police officers to hold professional liability insurance and be personally accountable for the lawsuits. More lawsuits equals a higher premium to be paid by the officer just like doctors and lawyers. This should act as a deterrent for misconduct and cause repeat offenders to leave the force. Although, unless it's broadly inacted it would probably not be hard for an officer to just get another job in a department that doesn't require insurance.
    That is an awesome idea. Police officers need to be held personally liable for their mistakes instead of the public bearing that financial burden.

    I'd also like to see all police officers in the US wearing cameras while they're "on the clock". That has been demonstrated to reduce complaints against the police, significantly, because not only do the police behave better, but the people they are interacting with behave better.

    But the biggest thing we can do to reduce police misconduct is to end drug prohibition.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #89
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Teachers investigate themselves when they are accused of a crime? I don't think so. The same goes for doctors and nurses. They might investigate other profession-related issues, but they don't investigate their own crimes. Only the police do that.
    Teachers do, yes. What do you think a principle used to be? Who do you think runs those unions? Regular people? The boards at the school and the unions aren't comprised entirely of people who don't know teaching from a picnic table.. they're usually people who have been in the shoes or are in the shoes still. Just like police investigators are usually people who have walked in the shoes of a cop, but not all of them. Doctors don't have a panel of hippies deciding whether what they did was right and wrong... they have other doctors in the hospital. Even for drastic cases (the death of a patient, or a fetus, for example) all go through the board of nurses. Which are made of.. surprise. Nurses. Does that mean no civil/criminal charges can be pressed? Not at all. But it goes through there definitely. Cops can definitely be charged with civil and criminal charges.. and it does happen all the time. Cops are forced to relinquish their careers for stupid things they've done. They don't make the news the same way the big stuff does.. but that's because it's not big stuff.

    It makes sense with unique professions for a lot of self-regulation. A lot goes wrong with it.. but if we had normal people that, say, got all pissed off and decided to hate everyone in the profession, they'd all be doomed from emotional outbursts alone. It's easier to find objective people that have experience dealing with the profession in one way or the other. Laws of A&P and research evidence govern medical professionals, and laws written by the states and government govern the police. It's fair to say there are flaws in that system--no system is perfect and the police could stand for a lot of reform and I've said as much before... but the police are not this mystical jedi race that threw up a 'your droids aren't here' hand and popped smoke while everyone looked away.

    Show me that nurses, as a group, have the ability to undermine confidence in government (which should be treason, IMO) and I'll get on that bandwagon too.
    This is a disagreement of information though. I don't think the police have the ability to undermine the government, I don't have anything to prove here. I don't think nurses do that at all, and I don't think police have the capability even if they wanted to.

    What are you accusing me of?

    Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant.
    Calm down there triggerfinger. I meant the proverbial general "you" not you in particular. Your 'oh we're all the enemies ' reply is just emotional personal feelings, not based on anything factual at all. Technically, irrelevant, but sure you can feel that way. This is a forum filled with NFs who don't mind emotions in debate. So, I feel like my personal feelings about my experiences are also appropriate here... I've definitely had asshole cops pull me over before.. but by and large, cops both ones I've dealt with on the wrong side of the law and working with them have been overwhelmingly generous people that like their job and are there because they want to actually do the things they stand for. I have not at all gotten the impression that society is the enemy for cops. They literally live in it on their off time. It just doesn't make sense to push an "us vs them" mentality on those who are literally telling you they don't have that mentality and won't operate based on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It just doesn't make sense to push an "us vs them" mentality on those who are literally telling you they don't have that mentality and won't operate based on that.
    Absolutely agree.
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