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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    Schoolbuses don't have seatbelts either and usually the kids turn out just fine

    Try giving them guns.
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  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again, how would you have "restrained" them in a way that wouldn't potentially result in a much larger riot? There are practical issues to resolve in how to accomplish the task; I don't think anyone actually prefers to see looting and burning occurring.

    I think that was my point before. I don't know all the constraints they were working under, and to write it off as "pc" is kind of short-sighted IMO since I think there are rational difficulties in how to quell a riot so that it doesn't blow out of control completely and so as to avoid loss of life.
    i don't know what the standard operating procedures are for crowd control. if people are throwing rocks/bricks and bottles, that's generally considered assault. 20 officers have been injured so far. a news reporter was interviewing a guy who was complaining about being shot with bean bags and then admitted that he was throwing objects at the police. a mother is being praised for disciplining her son who was involved in the rioting. she used force to protect him and make sure that he wasn't participating in the mayhem. but what about all of the boys whose mothers aren't intervening? if the police had done what she did to her son, it would be publicized as police brutality. i understand that elected officials don't want to escalate hostilities, but their reluctance to administer law and order in a timely manner, despite being forewarned of the ensuing chaos, has resulted in a lot of damage being done to the city. there is a sense that law-enforcement is intentionally being restrained, as it was in ferguson, in order to minimize confrontations, but law-enforcement by its very nature has to utilize authority and force in order to maintain the peace. as one local official put it, "black lives matter, but so do black businesses and neighborhoods."
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  3. #303
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixie sticks View Post
    i don't know what the standard operating procedures are for crowd control. if people are throwing rocks/bricks and bottles, that's generally considered assault. 20 officers have been injured so far. a news reporter was interviewing a guy who was complaining about being shot with bean bags and then admitted that he was throwing objects at the police. a mother is being praised for disciplining her son who was involved in the rioting. she used force to protect him and make sure that he's not participating in the destruction. but what about all of the boys whose mothers aren't intervening? if the police had done what she did to her son, it would be publicized as police brutality. i understand the elected officials don't want to escalate the hostility, but their reluctance to administer law and order in a timely manner, despite being forewarned of the ensuing chaos, has resulted in a lot of damage being done to the city. there is a sense that law-enforcement is intentionally being restrained, as it was in ferguson, in order to minimize confrontations, but law-enforcement by its very nature has to utilize authority and force in order to maintain the peace. as one local official put it, "black lives matter, but so do black businesses and neighborhoods."
    Yeah, we were talking about this at work. One of the guys says that he was tracking the police scanners here (since we're all local) and he heard MANY more reports than the media presented -- the "15" cops yesterday. He said it was far more than that amount of police injuries of various levels getting called in.

    I also heard that the governor (I think that's who was being discussed) was on the ground rather than providing high-level direction. There seemed to be a number of missteps/miscalls in the situation, and essentially what started as a riot among kids at a high school and the surrounding area branched out as other people joined the riots in other places in Baltimore. While they should have been more prepared based on the lesser stuff happening over the weekend, they weren't prepared for that. So I think that was part of the problem.

    Things seemed to be very different today with the national guard stationed downtown. Also, the guard is not the police, so the volatility triggers are different. having cops rough up and/or shoot the perpetrators would have likely just made things worse; the national guard is a different entity. It sounds terrible that they were called in at all, but maybe using them on Sunday (I heard they were on standby) before things got bad would have been a far better solution. But no one gave that order.

    I haven't really heard much up where I am, despite my getting out of work at noon and the local mall being threatened, so I'm hoping that is a good sign that everything has mostly settled down now. According to the alert system, we are scheduled to work regular hours tomorrow.

    still, after all the rioting is said and done, the problem still remains about the police misbehavior in various locales around the US, disadvantaging blacks, and how that is going to get resolved. The rioting only detracted from the problem that contributed to it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #304
    Meat Tornado DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    Maybe we need a rioters misconduct thread.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    - Edmund Burke

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  5. #305
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Maybe we need a rioters misconduct thread.
    You're free to start one. You can start by listing all the riots after sporting events. Those are far, far more common than riots like the ones in Baltimore and Ferguson. I'll help you get started. There have already been a few this year, Ohio State (winning in football), Kentucky (losing to Wisconsin in the Final Four), and UMass (after the Patriots won the Super Bowl). There will almost certainly be a few more this year. Giants fans rioted after they won the World Series last year. There will probably be another October riot in 2015. It's almost more newsworthy when a fanbase doesn't riot after winning a championship, like when the Los Angeles Kings won the Stanley cup last year.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."
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  6. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Maybe we need a rioters misconduct thread.
    How are rioters expected to conduct themselves? Violently, I suppose. So, is your thread meant to chronicle particularly peaceful and commendable riots?

  7. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    How are rioters expected to conduct themselves? Violently, I suppose. So, is your thread meant to chronicle particularly peaceful and commendable riots?
    lolz

  8. #308
    Meat Tornado DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    From Rod Dreher at TAC: It’s Society’s Fault. It Always Is

    An excerpt:

    I find this, from a Washington Post profile of Gray, revealing:

    “We’re just hurt,” said Angela Gardner, 22, who had dated Gray, though not exclusively, for the past two years. “He was so loyal, so kindhearted, so warm. Every time you saw him, you just smiled, because you knew you were going to have a good day.”
    Good ol’ Freddie. But wait:

    Friends said Gray never held a real job and spent his days hanging out in Sandtown. Money he used to buy designer accessories from Prada, they say, came in monthly settle*ment checks from a lead-paint lawsuit against the owners of the house where he grew up.

    One friend, the owner of Toak’s Progressive Bail Bonds, was also Gray’s bail bondsman.

    “He wasn’t mean-spirited. He was always respectful,” the bondsman, Quintin Reid, said. “He was one of the little happy-go-lucky guys who visited his mom every day.”
    He was a layabout who had a bail bondsman the way other people have an auto mechanic. Turns out he needed one. More:

    Court papers describe a disabled mother addicted to heroin who, in a deposition, said she couldn’t read. The suit alleged that peeling paint from walls and *windowsills contained enough lead to poison the children and render them incapable of leading functional lives.

    In a report filed in court, one expert said that Gray was four grade levels behind in reading but that tests did not show a disability that would keep him from holding a job. He had enough skills to work as a mason, it concluded.

    A court docket notes a settlement order in 2010, but the amount is undisclosed. Attorneys on both sides declined to comment.

    Court records show Gray was arrested more than a dozen times, going back to when he was 18, mostly in Gilmor Homes and mostly on charges of selling or possessing heroin or marijuana. He had a handful of convictions, and his longest stint behind bars was about two years.

    He had two pending drug cases when he died. In one, he was charged with a felony, accused of selling heroin by police who said they had witnessed hand-to-hand exchanges and found drugs in a small potato chip bag hidden in a drainpipe.
    Hear me loud and clear: any and all cops who mistreated Freddie Gray must be held accountable in court for their actions. But let’s not lie to ourselves about who does more to make Baltimore a hell for its poor black residents. It’s not the Baltimore cops; it’s the Freddie Grays. The unwillingness of the Jesse Jacksons and the Michael Eric Dysons to confront the role that black individuals and black communities play in perpetuating this cycle of violence and despair makes them hard to take seriously.

    “It is easier to fight the victim rather than the source of the darkness,” said Jesse Jackson. Do we even have to wonder what the Rev. Jackson considers to be the sole source of the darkness?

    If every Baltimore cop, in every instance of contact with a community thug, observed perfect protocol, that would do absolutely nothing to prevent the Freddie Grays from preying on their own communities. (And do not be deceived: the victims of the Freddie Grays are almost always black.) Gray was a hoodlum. Even hoodlums deserve to be treated fairly by the police, who, holding a monopoly on force in this society, must be held to the highest standards of conduct. But Baltimore’s core problem is not police brutality. Baltimore’s core problem is Freddie Gray, and the culture that manufactured him.

    “Society” can and must reform the police. But Society can’t do much of anything about the culture that generates Freddie Grays. The collapse of order within and among those inner-city communities and its members, of which fatherlessness is likely the chief effect, perpetuates the cycle. Most people know this, which is why they listen to what people like Jesse Jackson and Michael Eric Dyson say, and don’t take it seriously, because they understand that these men are talking around the problem.

    How do we save the Freddie Grays from themselves? No idea. It can’t be done by federal programs alone (left-wing solution), and it can’t be done solely by bootstrapping (right-wing solution). It really does take a village to raise a child, but what happens to that child when the village has collapsed? Again, I don’t know how to begin to solve this.

    But I know that scapegoating the Baltimore police — that is, blaming them for the entire social disaster that is poor black Baltimore, as distinct from holding them responsible for their allegedly brutal actions in this and other cases — is a dodge. It’s easy to blame the police, because it appears that they really are blameworthy. But if you think that arranging your emotions to focus spite only on the police is sufficient to end the conditions that created that hoodlum Freddie Gray, you are lying to yourself.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
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  9. #309

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    @DiscoBiscuit

    You know I like Rod. A lot.

    I had this opinion a few years ago too. He's right that people should be recognized as moral agents. That they should feel empowered to make those changes and should not seek to always be viewed as victims.

    But, Rod Dreher is not in a position where his opinion is given any weight by the people that need this message. Nobody that needs to hear this message reads Dreher's articles.

    White people read Rod Dreher.

    So he should tailor his message to what white people need to hear. White people do not need to be told about moral responsibility (well at least when it comes to basic street crimes). This message only serves to make Whites think there is nothing they can do and all of this is purely the fault of black people.

    “Society” can and must reform the police. But Society can’t do much of anything about the culture that generates Freddie Grays. The collapse of order within and among those inner-city communities and its members, of which fatherlessness is likely the chief effect, perpetuates the cycle. Most people know this, which is why they listen to what people like Jesse Jackson and Michael Eric Dyson say, and don’t take it seriously, because they understand that these men are talking around the problem.
    Yes there are lots and lots of things that society can do.

    Criminal justice reform:

    1. Reduce the levels of offense for petty non-violent drug crimes.
    2. Get rid of 3 strike laws.
    3. Allow people already convicted of non-violent felonies to get their felonies expunged from the record.

    Police Reform:

    1. End Police Bill of Rights.
    2. Create systems where outside departments perform investigations into Police violence.
    3. Make Cops personally liable for damages and make them hold Mal-practice insurance.
    4. Get rid of police unions.
    5 Set hiring practices in place so that the Cops actually look like the communities they police.

    Other governmental reforms:
    1. Create tax-free zones that will draw investment into poor neighborhoods.
    2. Crack down on slum lords.
    3. Provide some grants for investment in older homes.
    4. Outlaw usury and get rid of pay advances.
    5. Charter schools and vouchers

    Non-profit/Church/community
    1. Create relationships and partnerships with organizations that are already in poor neighborhoods.
    2. If new organizations are formed by outside groups then the goal should be to transfer leadership to people within the community that our of the predominant race in that community.
    3. Fund successful organizations that are already in the inner-city
    4. Find ways to interact with and befriend people with different socioeconomic and racial backgrounds.
    5. Find ways to seek out and put into power black people in white non-profits, churches and businesses.
    That last one is an important one that I learned when listening to black Christian discussion on Ferguson. It's one thing to be like Colbert and have a black friend. It's another to be answerable and accountable to someone of a minority race. White people need Black pastors that will challenge them.

    These are things that just popped into my head so you can see why I'm simply aghast at the idea that Mr. Dreher could not come up with any ideas about what society can do.
    Maybe with more exposure to these issues Mr. Dreher will change his mind. He's not a daft man by any means.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
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  10. #310

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    Early this morning Rod wrote a more thoughtful follow-up piece. I still think he's ignoring a lot of things that can be done to help fix these problems and not fully recognizing the oppression of black people. I do appreciate his addressing the big white ghetto in Appalachia. These are complex issues with lots of different things at work, but I feel like he's just throwing up his hands.

    More Freddie Thoughts | The American Conservative
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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