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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Familiar how?

    I hear a lot of people who have no routine or regular experience or contact with police officers venturing opinions about police work, I can understand that, I never was one for believing that you cant or shouldnt venture an opinion on something you dont have direct experience of "dont knock it until you've tried it style" but dont you think its important to ground thinking in practical reality too?

    It'd be kind of like people offering you regular opinions or advice on fire fighting when all they have to go on is Backdraft.
    My comments were in regards to prosecution of cases and not police work itself. I'm fairly certain I have more familiarity with the American criminal justice system than you. So unless you have some evidence that my observations are incorrect I'm not sure their is any point to your criticisms of my authority to speak on the subject.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Familiar how?

    I hear a lot of people who have no routine or regular experience or contact with police officers venturing opinions about police work, I can understand that, I never was one for believing that you cant or shouldnt venture an opinion on something you dont have direct experience of "dont knock it until you've tried it style" but dont you think its important to ground thinking in practical reality too?

    It'd be kind of like people offering you regular opinions or advice on fire fighting when all they have to go on is Backdraft.
    I took this personally when I really shouldn't have.

    They're public servants. Everybody has a right to an opinion about their conduct and performance. "Don't knock it unless you've tried it" is absurd in this instance and does seem to be your point as I don't see why practical experience has anything to do with my criticism. Anyone with power over life and death of the populace should be subjected to the criticisms of that populace regardless of their personal experience.

    If you're going to dismiss those criticisms you better have evidence for why those criticisms should be dismissed.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If you're going to dismiss those criticisms you better have evidence for why those criticisms should be dismissed.
    It's going to be the old hat: 'you don't know what you're talking about'.

  4. #204

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Black men need to stop reaching into their empty waistband every time a cop comes at them. It's uncanny that every time a cop shoots someone that's unarmed they happened to be reaching into an empty waistband.

    In other news SOUTH CAROLINA got an indictment against a white cop who shot an unarmed black man.
    Three indictments against South Carolina police officers in past 4 months - CBS News
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Black men need to stop reaching into their empty waistband every time a cop comes at them. It's uncanny that every time a cop shoots someone that's unarmed they happened to be reaching into an empty waistband.

    In other news SOUTH CAROLINA got an indictment against a white cop who shot an unarmed black man.
    Three indictments against South Carolina police officers in past 4 months - CBS News
    I can understand that cops can make mistakes, but do they always have to go for the kill?

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I took this personally when I really shouldn't have.

    They're public servants. Everybody has a right to an opinion about their conduct and performance. "Don't knock it unless you've tried it" is absurd in this instance and does seem to be your point as I don't see why practical experience has anything to do with my criticism. Anyone with power over life and death of the populace should be subjected to the criticisms of that populace regardless of their personal experience.

    If you're going to dismiss those criticisms you better have evidence for why those criticisms should be dismissed.
    It wasnt meant as a personal slight.

    I dont believe that professionals and public servants shouldnt be subject to scrutiny or critical evaluations, that's great, although I do think people should ground their views more often than they do. That goes for any topic. I'm not saying exactly that it ought to be "dont knock it unless you've tried it".

    I'm also not being dismissive, that's not my intent and I'm sorry if it appears that way but I've heard a lot of criticism of authority and policing which originates from a kind of punk, skater, politicised position which I think are far from legit sources. I'm not aiming to be curmudgeonly or whatever, it'd be easy to dismiss as being that way but see what I'm saying.

    I agree completely that they are public servants but the public is often a hard task master and send very seriously mixed messages, they want a polite, even servile, service for themselves, their family and direct acquaintences, a tough, no nonsense, even authoritarian (as opposed to simply authoritative) service for others, usually nasty elements they find it hard to deal with, which is further complicated by the fact that they could fit either category depending on what sort of a day they're having.

    The crazy thing is that I do think there's inexcusable conduct, I do think the question of who watches the watchmen is important, however I think public discourse has become imbalanced in one direction, an anti-authoritarian one.

  8. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I can understand that cops can make mistakes, but do they always have to go for the kill?
    1. They are trained to fire at center of mass and many of these shootings happen at close range so it's not surprising they would kill the person.
    2. If it is a mistake then the same nerves that would cause them to make the mistake would probably lead them to let off more shots than necessary.
    3. If it's not a mistake... you don't want to leave a witness.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #209
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Garner didn't die from being choked out... He died for resisting arrest while already being in very poor health (obesity, asthma and possible heart disease). Someone who legitimately can not breathe from having their windpipe cut off would not be able to clearly say "I can't breathe." He died from positional asphyxia where his obesity was a contributing factor in and of itself.

    Man in chokehold death had no throat damage: autopsy | New York Post

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It wasnt meant as a personal slight.

    I dont believe that professionals and public servants shouldnt be subject to scrutiny or critical evaluations, that's great, although I do think people should ground their views more often than they do. That goes for any topic. I'm not saying exactly that it ought to be "dont knock it unless you've tried it".

    I'm also not being dismissive, that's not my intent and I'm sorry if it appears hthat way but I've heard a lot of criticism of authority and policing which originates from a kind of punk, skater, politicised position which I think are far from legit sources. I'm not aiming to be curmudgeonly or whatever, it'd be easy to dismiss as being that way but see what I'm saying.

    I agree completely that they are public servants but the public is often a hard task master and send very seriously mixed messages, they want a polite, even servile, service for themselves, their family and direct acquaintences, a tough, no nonsense, even authoritarian (as opposed to simply authoritative) service for others, usually nasty elements they find it hard to deal with, which is further complicated by the fact that they could fit either category depending on what sort of a day they're having.

    The crazy thing is that I do think there's inexcusable conduct, I do think the question of who watches the watchmen is important, however I think public discourse has become imbalanced in one direction, an anti-authoritarian one.
    I agree with your comments except for the last one. It's a matter of perception though, but I think the difficulty in getting an indictment or conviction against officers even when there's hard evidence goes to show how biased most juries are in favor of police. That being said I do think the unique circumstances should be taken into consideration with the judgement, but these guys who make these horrible negligent mistakes should have criminal records and not ever work for the police again.

    If you have the time and your interested this is a pretty good interview and q&a with Bill Yeomans who has headed up federal investigations into civil rights violations at police departments across the country. Obviously, he's far from anti-authoritarian given that he works for the DOJ, but he's also honest about common problems in dealing with police including confronting the "blue wall of silence" when officers refuse to participate meaningfully in an investigation.

    Washington Journal William Yeomans Justice | Video | C-SPAN.org
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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