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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    then you have the question of the differentiation between cults and overall religious fundamentalism... if it is a fundamentalist sect would it be more likely to be classified as a cult or a movement? or as a fundamentally tinged wing of that religion?
    I don't actually think differentiating cults from sects and so forth is necessary for identifying fundamentalism. This will sound weird, but I don't even think identifying an exact religion is necessary. Fundamentalism as a term has very specific origins but at this point is is pretty generally used for a kind of belief that is applicable to almost anything, as for example you reference markets (realistically I think some subjects are just much more likely to spawn fundamentalism than others). So we might think of fundamentalism as an unwavering and literal adherence to irreducible principles that are taken to be universal, meaning a person is simply right or wrong based on acceptance of these supposed truths.

    So, the more realistic way to talk about someone, now that I think about it, would be to say they are fundamentalist about X, rather than saying they are a fundamentalist X. I suppose, hypothetically, a person could be fundamentalist about eggs over easy, but it doesn't seem likely. Then again, there are people who are fundamentalist about mixing dairy and meat, but only because it is a sub-item of a broader ideology they are fundamentalist about.

    To get back to specifics, I feel I left out that fact that Buddhist fundamentalist are definitely a thing and still exist.
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  2. #22
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't actually think differentiating cults from sects and so forth is necessary for identifying fundamentalism. This will sound weird, but I don't even think identifying an exact religion is necessary. Fundamentalism as a term has very specific origins but at this point is is pretty generally used for a kind of belief that is applicable to almost anything, as for example you reference markets (realistically I think some subjects are just much more likely to spawn fundamentalism than others). So we might think of fundamentalism as an unwavering and literal adherence to irreducible principles that are taken to be universal, meaning a person is simply right or wrong based on acceptance of these supposed truths.

    So, the more realistic way to talk about someone, now that I think about it, would be to say they are fundamentalist about X, rather than saying they are a fundamentalist X. I suppose, hypothetically, a person could be fundamentalist about eggs over easy, but it doesn't seem likely. Then again, there are people who are fundamentalist about mixing dairy and meat, but only because it is a sub-item of a broader ideology they are fundamentalist about.

    To get back to specifics, I feel I left out that fact that Buddhist fundamentalist are definitely a thing and still exist.
    and then there's the further issue of constituting what really is fundamentalism... where do you draw the line between conservatism and fundamentalism? I mean, to an agnostic liberal I would feel much more inclined to call something fundamentalist than a conservative religious person would...

    I mean, generally speaking one might say that poverty would be more likely to spawn fundamentalism, but in my mind there are plenty of rich people who are fundamentalists in their own way as well, and the middle class... I have an aunt and uncle who I would classify as christian fundamentalists and they're upper middle class and live in the west
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  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    and then there's the further issue of constituting what really is fundamentalism... where do you draw the line between conservatism and fundamentalism? I mean, to an agnostic liberal I would feel much more inclined to call something fundamentalist than a conservative religious person would...
    I don't want to get too much into the topic of bias because it's potentially a problem for every study, and debating whether or not we can have accurate analysis of things with human bias is a whole other topic and really tedious and so forth. I will say I think one doesn't have to draw a line per se between conservatism and fundamentalism because I think they are qualitatively different things. In a super over-simplified description, conservatives just means not wanting things to change. But you can approach that in different ways, potentially in a non-fundamentalist way. On the other hand, you can definitely be a fundamentalist radical, not just a regressive one, but even a progressive one, if you've developed some fervent idea of the brave new future that you think about in a manner according with the definition of fundamentalism I gave before. So I think terms like conservative, progressive, regressive, are objective and preference oriented, whereas fundamentalism is a little more meta, its about how you think of your own objectives and preferences.

    This reminds me of a time on Facebook when a friend of a friend (who I did not know) posted the question "what do you call it when you think something is so awesome that you can't understand how anyone else couldn't like it?". I imagine that person was referring to something silly like a food or a TV series, but my friend replied "fundamentalism". I thought it was the perfect response.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I mean, generally speaking one might say that poverty would be more likely to spawn fundamentalism, but in my mind there are plenty of rich people who are fundamentalists in their own way as well, and the middle class... I have an aunt and uncle who I would classify as christian fundamentalists and they're upper middle class and live in the west
    Well, you know, doing the sociological thing, we should look at trends amongst a greater society. I think it is true to say that society's with more poverty will have more than society's with less, all other things being equal. I also think impoverished individuals more likely to become fundamentalists. However, I think the social agents of fundamentalism are usually not impoverished. The people who sow the seeds of fundamentalism, who introduce it to the impoverished masses, are usually middle class to rich.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't want to get too much into the topic of bias because it's potentially a problem for every study, and debating whether or not we can have accurate analysis of things with human bias is a whole other topic and really tedious and so forth. I will say I think one doesn't have to draw a line per se between conservatism and fundamentalism because I think they are qualitatively different things. In a super over-simplified description, conservatives just means not wanting things to change. But you can approach that in different ways, potentially in a non-fundamentalist way. On the other hand, you can definitely be a fundamentalist radical, not just a regressive one, but even a progressive one, if you've developed some fervent idea of the brave new future that you think about in a manner according with the definition of fundamentalism I gave before. So I think terms like conservative, progressive, regressive, are objective and preference oriented, whereas fundamentalism is a little more meta, its about how you think of your own objectives and preferences.

    This reminds me of a time on Facebook when a friend of a friend (who I did not know) posted the question "what do you call it when you think something is so awesome that you can't understand how anyone else couldn't like it?". I imagine that person was referring to something silly like a food or a TV series, but my friend replied "fundamentalism". I thought it was the perfect response.
    I tend to see it as a desire to go back to the basics and interpret it strictly (i.e. I'd consider Scalia a constitutional fundamentalist for his textualist interpretations) as fundamentalism as opposed to the desire to convert everyone to it because surely if they knew it they'd love it (I'd consider that evangelism)

    used to the idea that if you're going to posit about something a definition is necessary



    Well, you know, doing the sociological thing, we should look at trends amongst a greater society. I think it is true to say that society's with more poverty will have more than society's with less, all other things being equal. I also think impoverished individuals more likely to become fundamentalists. However, I think the social agents of fundamentalism are usually not impoverished. The people who sow the seeds of fundamentalism, who introduce it to the impoverished masses, are usually middle class to rich.
    trickle down religion/philosophy?

    (and this comment is for the sponge alone... no need to debate it here...) might work better than trickle down economics
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #25
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    I see nobody has bothered to answer me.

    "Fundies are evil let's wipe out fundamentalism and the world will be happy! Peace and love! Yaaaay!!!"

    *yawn*

  6. #26
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I tend to see it as a desire to go back to the basics and interpret it strictly (i.e. I'd consider Scalia a constitutional fundamentalist for his textualist interpretations) as fundamentalism as opposed to the desire to convert everyone to it because surely if they knew it they'd love it (I'd consider that evangelism)

    used to the idea that if you're going to posit about something a definition is necessary
    In a more concerted writing effort I would define my terms in advance, but this has been more of an organic conversation where I wouldn't have necessarily known what I would needed to say. Although, sometimes it's not clear where defining a term ends and simply describing how things actually work begins.

    The reason for the terminology I use is because I perceive a number of case where conservatism and regressivism, and then on top of that fundamentalism, are being referred to by the same thing and then, following from that, treated as the some thing and serious confusion follows. It seemed to me necessary to define these as separate things to get a more accurate picture of socio-political matters.

    I could actually see Scalia being fundamentalist, regardless of where he stands on the other continuum. I think, of course, a lot of the Christian political block in the US is fundamentalist. There are free market fundamentalists, too. I guess what I'd say is that in some countries, including the USA, fundamentalism overlaps with conservatism and regressivism so often that it's easy to forget they are discrete.

    EDIT: And why not go further at this point and say that there's actually much more active regressivism in the USA than conservatism, and much of people observe has conservatism is actually regressivism. There are other parts of the world like Europe and China where there has been a more authentic history of conservatism (not that there's never been regressivism). In the USA regressivism has seemingly always been much more popular than conservatism.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    trickle down religion/philosophy?

    (and this comment is for the sponge alone... no need to debate it here...) might work better than trickle down economics
    I never thought of it as trickle down philosophy before. Probably safer to call it ideology. I think, if I treat this like a real analogy (which it may not have been intended to be), the difference from trickle down economics is that in these cases the upper class ideologue very deliberately attempts to influence the masses and bring his/her ideology to them, where as if it were like trickle down economics, it would be more like the ideology interactions of the upper class would just gradually filter down to the lower class. Either way, that it starts with the bourgeoisie is nearly always true, even in the case of socialist movements.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I see nobody has bothered to answer me.

    "Fundies are evil let's wipe out fundamentalism and the world will be happy! Peace and love! Yaaaay!!!"

    *yawn*
    You have one post in this thread and it doesn't have a single question mark in it. Perhaps that's why no one answered you.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #28
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In a more concerted writing effort I would define my terms in advance, but this has been more of an organic conversation where I wouldn't have necessarily known what I would needed to say. Although, sometimes it's not clear where defining a term ends and simply describing how things actually work begins.

    The reason for the terminology I use is because I perceive a number of case where conservatism and regressivism, and then on top of that fundamentalism, are being referred to by the same thing and then, following from that, treated as the some thing and serious confusion follows. It seemed to me necessary to define these as separate things to get a more accurate picture of socio-political matters.

    I could actually see Scalia being fundamentalist, regardless of where he stands on the other continuum. I think, of course, a lot of the Christian political block in the US is fundamentalist. There are free market fundamentalists, too. I guess what I'd say is that in some countries, including the USA, fundamentalism overlaps with conservatism and regressivism so often that it's easy to forget they are discrete.

    EDIT: And why not go further at this point and say that there's actually much more active regressivism in the USA than conservatism, and much of people observe has conservatism is actually regressivism. There are other parts of the world like Europe and China where there has been a more authentic history of conservatism (not that there's never been regressivism). In the USA regressivism has seemingly always been much more popular than conservatism.
    yeah... overlap in categories and subjective viewpoints are the bane of the social sciences

    you start to think that the departments would be a lot smaller if there was any form of certainty on anything in the least



    I never thought of it as trickle down philosophy before. Probably safer to call it ideology. I think, if I treat this like a real analogy (which it may not have been intended to be), the difference from trickle down economics is that in these cases the upper class ideologue very deliberately attempts to influence the masses and bring his/her ideology to them, where as if it were like trickle down economics, it would be more like the ideology interactions of the upper class would just gradually filter down to the lower class. Either way, that it starts with the bourgeoisie is nearly always true, even in the case of socialist movements.
    that's because ideology is like zucchinis... everyone feels the overwhelming need to share them if they have them. money, however, is more like cookies... something we prefer to hoard (or maybe that's just me...)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    yeah... overlap in categories and subjective viewpoints are the bane of the social sciences

    you start to think that the departments would be a lot smaller if there was any form of certainty on anything in the least
    Funny, I say something similar. I tend to say that with more knowledge the social sciences will eventually just be absorbed into sociology, or more accurately the homogenized field of sociology and psychology, since the two don't do themselves any favors by treating the other as alien. I don't think social sciences are completely devoid of firm ground right now, but they do have a very long way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that's because ideology is like zucchinis... everyone feels the overwhelming need to share them if they have them. money, however, is more like cookies... something we prefer to hoard (or maybe that's just me...)


    Do people feel the need to share zucchinis?! I think I missed this.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Funny, I say something similar. I tend to say that with more knowledge the social sciences will eventually just be absorbed into sociology, or more accurately the homogenized field of sociology and psychology, since the two don't do themselves any favors by treating the other as alien. I don't think social sciences are completely devoid of firm ground right now, but they do have a very long way to go.






    Do people feel the need to share zucchinis?! I think I missed this.
    they did when I was growing up... apparently those plants are prolific producers or something!
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