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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    It certainly seems to be the case in the US.
    And how did you come to this conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    Are we not watching the same video?
    I would've supported the officers' actions if they were black and the suspect was white; but somehow, I don't think you'd be here complaining about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    I do believe there's a bias against African-American men, lets not forget that this happened less than 4 miles (~6km) from where Michael Brown was fatally shot roughly ten days before and he was unarmed. You shouldn't evade discussions around race especially since it's a contributing factor.
    That's another discussion in itself. This shooting's proximity to any other crime is really irrelevant and the officers involved here weren't involved in the other case. To make racial assumptions is the result of prejudice and that's exactly what the protests were based on. Michael Brown was unarmed, but he was also a physically imposing person who liked to push people around. It is possible to severely injure or kill someone with your bare hands. Whether or not the officer in that case is being truthful about what happened should be revealed in the federal investigation. If race was the motive then why didn't he shoot his black friends? These preemptive assumptions are ignorant.

  2. #82
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    And how did you come to this conclusion?
    Seriously? You want me to go through every racial issue the US has ever had?

    I would've supported the officers' actions if they were black and the suspect was white; but somehow, I don't think you'd be here complaining about that.
    And what gave you that idea aside from your own projection? Don't make assumptions about me, I care for every injustice regardless of race.

    That's another discussion in itself. This shooting's proximity to any other crime is really irrelevant and the officers involved here weren't involved in the other case. To make racial assumptions is the result of prejudice and that's exactly what the protests were based on. Michael Brown was unarmed, but he was also a very large kid who liked to push people around. It is possible to severely injure or kill someone with your bare hands. Whether or not the officer in that case is being truthful about what happened should be revealed in the federal investigation. If race was the motive then why didn't he shoot his black friends? These preemptive assumptions are ignorant.
    Not ignorant considering Ferguson's race issues.


    Edit: The bigger issue here is the undue death but I can't ignore the context.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Could it be that they are trained to diffuse conflicts rather than to escalate them, and to work with the human aspect of a situation rather than simply the weapons/technology aspect?
    I strongly suspect so. Reading what I have in this thread about police training in the US, they seem to be poorly equipped to handle any situation that falls outsite a shockling limited scenario of possible interactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    If it was your safety on the line, are you going to take that for granted and make assumptions that might cost you your life?
    Hell no. I would shoot the fucker five times in the head before he hits the ground to make sure I can safely go home to my family after a normal day of work. However, I do expect policemen to handle such a situation more prudently than the average Joe, not less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Officers in the US are trained to take control of a situation, not give that control over to criminals or come to mutually agreeable resolutions.
    An approach, as evidenced by this case, that in its impressive inflexibility clearly produces only the best possible outcomes.

  4. #84
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So, just what keeps so many more UK officers alive, despite the fact that the average officer on patrol has a night stick and not a gun? Could it be that they are trained to diffuse conflicts rather than to escalate them, and to work with the human aspect of a situation rather than simply the weapons/technology aspect? I suspect access to guns among the population is much more limited than in the U.S., but not to knives.
    I'd say access to guns is a huge influence.. and I'd like to see statistics of police deaths in areas of the UK specifically where armed officers are required. I know plenty of police guards and such that only carry tasers, spray, and other non-lethals in not-so-bad areas of town.. or just being security guards for a region, etc. But those guys aren't the ones working in areas gangs are known to frequent. I don't know because I don't live in the UK, but I can't imagine non-armed UK police officers being sent into an area with known violent murders and crimes to respond to something like a strong-armed robbery with just a baton.

    I think there is a lot of merit to diffusing a situation, and it's a skill that's immeasurably useful in police work. It's another reason I think police should always roll in pairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    ^ If he were white, it wouldn't have made the news because it wouldn't have happened.
    That police officers don't shoot white men? Police officers shoot men, women, anyone that they feel is going to try to kill them in a moment. And sometimes they're wrong-and they pay for their lack of attention to detail. It's the great downside to being a cop.. sometimes you're stupid, and wrong, and you see enemies were none exist, and you go to jail and lose your career and livelihood because of it. I don't know how heavy racism was influenced here... but if the cop was racist, the victim certainly wasn't helping reveal that aspect with a 10 second charge + a knife. And that's just what I'm gathering from people responding to the thread...

    I'm not going to say racism doesn't exist--it clearly does. But there has to be concrete evidence of racism in every particular situation. Saying, "Well, they happened near each other" is like saying ice cream causes murder because they both increase in the summer. But you're right, it wouldn't have made the news the same way.

    Critics see racial 'double standard' in coverage of police shootings - Washington Times

    And it is because of race one makes national headlines and the other doesn't, regardless of the details of the cases. I wish more was done on merit, or lack thereof, than race. Unfortunately, it is not. Maybe both these cops were in the wrong and racist.. maybe one was and one wasn't. But I do agree that the victim being black and the cop being white had a heavy hand in making national news headlines. If any of those elements changed, the story wouldn't have been so sensational.. and the general people in the population would have chalked it up to thugs being thugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    It certainly seems to be the case in the US.
    The media has a way of painting pictures. I don't think racism is any less alive in other countries in comparison to the US.. and after being an France and Belgium, I know it is certainly more stark than I'd have seen in my conservative state. But if I only had the news to look at, and not first hand experience, I'd probably think the US is just full of slavery-loving-bigots too.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Let's be honest, if this guy was white instead of black, it wouldn't have even made the news because that's not a sensational story for the headlines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    ^ If he were white, it wouldn't have made the news because it wouldn't have happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    Seriously? You want me to go through every racial issue the US has ever had?
    No, I'm just pointing out there is a definite bias in the way the media emphasizes certain stories and ignores others in order to further their agenda and sway people's perspectives. The article kyuuei linked to is a good example. I didn't even hear about this incident because the national media didn't find it necessary to broadcast it daily. Do you assume the black officer in this situation, whom you know nothing about, was also committing a racially motivated hate crime? Or do you give him the benefit of the doubt because he's black and the victim is white?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Critics see racial 'double standard' in coverage of police shootings - Washington Times

    And it is because of race one makes national headlines and the other doesn't, regardless of the details of the cases. I wish more was done on merit, or lack thereof, than race. Unfortunately, it is not. Maybe both these cops were in the wrong and racist.. maybe one was and one wasn't. But I do agree that the victim being black and the cop being white had a heavy hand in making national news headlines. If any of those elements changed, the story wouldn't have been so sensational.. and the general people in the population would have chalked it up to thugs being thugs.

    The media has a way of painting pictures. I don't think racism is any less alive in other countries in comparison to the US.. and after being an France and Belgium, I know it is certainly more stark than I'd have seen in my conservative state. But if I only had the news to look at, and not first hand experience, I'd probably think the US is just full of slavery-loving-bigots too.
    Agreed.

  6. #86
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    No, I'm just pointing out there is a definite bias in the way the media emphasizes certain stories and ignores others in order to further their agenda and sway people's perspectives. The article kyuuei linked to is a good example. I didn't even hear about this incident because the national media didn't find it necessary to broadcast it daily. Do you assume the black officer in this situation, whom you know nothing about, was also committing a racially motivated hate crime? Or do you give him the benefit of the doubt because he's black and the victim is white?
    Okay. Let's entertain the idea that this event in Utah is a miscarriage of justice brought about by racism. What if I agreed with that? How exactly would that matter? Would that mean the events in St. Louis and Ferguson were not racist? Does it mean that the police in those situations did nothing wrong?

    This media discussion is starting to seem like an irrelevant aside.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Okay. Let's entertain the idea that this event in Utah is a miscarriage of justice brought about by racism. What if I agreed with that? How exactly would that matter? Would that mean the events in St. Louis and Ferguson were not racist? Does it mean that the police in those situations did nothing wrong?
    The fact is, you don't know if the officers in any of these circumstances were racist and adding a racial motive usually elevates any crime to a hate crime. If the officers acted wrongfully in accordance with their training, let the investigation disclose that. Even if they did violate protocol in some capacity, proving their intentions were a result of racism and not a reaction to being in a hostile situation where they feared for their safety is a dubious task.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This media discussion is starting to seem like an irrelevant aside.
    It's not irrelevant when racial undertones were being assumed from the very beginning to condemn the officers' actions in St. Louis, which ultimately led to rioting and looting. Then the media essentially turns a blind eye when a black cop shoots an unarmed white suspect two days later in Utah.

  8. #88
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    The fact is, you don't know if the officers in any of these circumstances were racist and adding a racial motive usually elevates any crime to a hate crime. If the officers acted wrongfully in accordance with their training, let the investigation disclose that. Even if they did violate protocol in some capacity, proving their intentions were a result of racism and not the reaction of being in a hostile situation where they feared for their safety is a dubious task.



    It's not irrelevant when racial undertones were being assumed from the very beginning to condemn the officers' actions, which ultimately lead to rioting and looting in St. Louis. Then the media essentially turns a blind eye when a black cop shoots an unarmed white suspect two days later in Utah.
    As far as I'm concerned, if the police were not acting on racism, they are still in the wrong, they still used unnecessary force, for whatever reason. And as far as I can tell, accusations of racism aside, the criticism of the police and the suggestions it has brought about seem to me to be just as relevant to protecting white people from police brutality as black people. Training police to diffuse conflict, re-considering how police are armed, placing more legal accountability on police for the damages they do, all these things would hypothetically make every race of people safer.

    I don't care about the media coverage. I believe statistical research continues to affirm that the law is harder on black people at virtually every stage. But even if that's so, and that fact compels someone to implement the aforementioned changes, those changes would still also make white people safer, so I'm not sure what the point of complaining is.
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  9. #89
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Okay. Let's entertain the idea that this event in Utah is a miscarriage of justice brought about by racism. What if I agreed with that? How exactly would that matter? Would that mean the events in St. Louis and Ferguson were not racist? Does it mean that the police in those situations did nothing wrong?

    This media discussion is starting to seem like an irrelevant aside.
    To me this implies a lot of things.

    First and foremost, that people are lazy, which we probably already know. No one really cares about either person, and that's the real truth of the matter, as evidenced by the sensationalism being attributed to the race card. If the motivation was to show police being overly forceful, the white victim would be adding to their point, not diminishing it.. instead, this story was not given much glance.

    People are focusing on the race card only. This means that no matter what that police officer did or did not do, people label him racist and wrong. If the investigation shows he's good, people will be all sorts of frowny-faced about it. It puts a LOT of pressure on investigation teams to *find* something wrong, even if it may not be there or if a different cop not in the limelight would have been given different treatment. People want special treatment.. the things they care about, or pretend to care about, they want more out of it all. No one cares what happens to the black cop in the other article. They just don't. They do care if they expose this guy as being racist, regardless of if he actually is or not.

    To ignore that this cop could potentially have committed a hate crime would be bad.. but the investigation should be the one showing that. There shouldn't be a "white cop shoots black man dead" spin on things before the investigation even has a chance to do its thing. And that heavily influences investigations even if you don't want it to and try to be as objective as possible.
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  10. #90
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    The media are sensationalist. Big revelation. Unless anybody here is a media representative, I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion, though. I would find the shooting of the knife wielder just as appalling if all involved had been green.

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