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  1. #71
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Considering I prefaced everything with a "I refuse to debate the politics of this particular situation, but rather would like to discuss the fact that people are saying inaccurate things about their position pertaining weapons" before I said what I was actually willing to talk about, maybe next time I should just make a macro to c&p after every single post.
    Maybe next time you should not do what you claim to refuse to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Even having two people there... you don't always know what the other guy is doing or who he is. You hope he's a great cop--but maybe he isn't. Maybe the taser fails, you get cut, and this guy just stands there or runs for cover before shooting. I haven't seen anything on who the guys were, if they were partners, if they were two random cops responding, I don't know and I don't really have the time to invest into finding all those particulars out. But it is worth it to note that even with more than one person there, NOT knowing who you're working beside is a great cause to assume they might not save your life. Ideally sure, all cops are trained and will fight for their brothers... in reality, it isn't always so, and I wouldn't gamble my life on that brotherly bond existing in this day and age with Stranger Joe either.

    I still maintain that people don't realize how quickly one can be killed if they make the wrong decision. 10 seconds of shouting is a LONG time of shouting before deciding to fire. Shouting takes a second. "Stop" takes a fraction of a second. If someone isn't going to restrain themselves after 10 seconds of shouting, chances are they aren't going to stop until they get to you. They don't typically have changes of heart when they're in your face. If you heard a woman shouting and screaming "STOP! STOP IT!" for 10 seconds before you did anything about it, I'd say you were almost trying to ignore the situation. It only takes one shout to know something is wrong and more than 2-3 seconds to know it might not stop without someone intervening.
    If you spent half as much imagination on finding alternatives to shooting the guy - not once, but many times - as you have in defense of it, perhaps you too would find your posts irritating.

  2. #72
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Even having two people there... you don't always know what the other guy is doing or who he is. You hope he's a great cop--but maybe he isn't. Maybe the taser fails, you get cut, and this guy just stands there or runs for cover before shooting. I haven't seen anything on who the guys were, if they were partners, if they were two random cops responding, I don't know and I don't really have the time to invest into finding all those particulars out. But it is worth it to note that even with more than one person there, NOT knowing who you're working beside is a great cause to assume they might not save your life. Ideally sure, all cops are trained and will fight for their brothers... in reality, it isn't always so, and I wouldn't gamble my life on that brotherly bond existing in this day and age with Stranger Joe either.
    If they don't trust each other why the hell should we trust them?

  3. #73
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    To hell with tasers when multiple calls reported an armed individual (2 knives) was shoplifting & behaving in a threatening manner, one round fired from a 12 gauge would have prevented the Thug from getting that close to the responding officers.

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  4. #74
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Maybe next time you should not do what you claim to refuse to do.


    If you spent half as much imagination on finding alternatives to shooting the guy - not once, but many times - as you have in defense of it, perhaps you too would find your posts irritating.
    I'm not talking about this particular case. Because I haven't read about it. I haven't had time to sort through it, and I don't know if I even want to really. I don't know if the guy is a terrible cop or not, he very well could be, I have no reason to defend him and I'm not. I refuse to debate it because I would have no clue what I'm talking about specifically. I'm just talking about people's proposals to weapons, and stating real reasons why they wouldn't be considered.

    People are already talking about all the things he should have done. I thought I'd just bring something else to the table instead of saying all the hindsight things that everyone else already said. There isn't much to add there.

    I am saying if you're going to imagine alternatives, make them plausible. Tasers aren't reliable or always viable, and no where in current police codes are officers required to take armed people threatening danger on one's life down non-lethally. And there's a real reason why that is.. that people seemed to be ignoring here. The knife makes a huge difference in the weapon choice used. So I felt it worth addressing. Sorry you find that so annoying, but I'm really not defending the cop because I don't know what really happened to a T.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If they don't trust each other why the hell should we trust them?
    I'm not saying that's what happened, but that is a reality. Even though I trust people it doesn't mean they'll have their heads on straight and pick up my slack after recognizing my attempt to find a less violent alternative failed before I get sliced up and beat up. If something fails it doesn't guarantee that people will have time to shout, warn, react, recognize the failure, and then react again with a higher level of force.

    Really, truly, I wish there were more reliable non-lethal weapons. I wish there were more available and invested, and I have a whole span of thoughts on the subject, but they're all idealistic ideas that don't really fit the conversation here. I wouldn't argue that I dislike non-lethals, I think they're better for cops and civilians both. Just that currently I dislike what's available, they're weak and unreliable enough that they're put on the back burner too often.
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  5. #75
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm not talking about this particular case. Because I haven't read about it. I haven't had time to sort through it, and I don't know if I even want to really. I don't know if the guy is a terrible cop or not, he very well could be, I have no reason to defend him and I'm not. I refuse to debate it because I would have no clue what I'm talking about specifically. I'm just talking about people's proposals to weapons, and stating real reasons why they wouldn't be considered.
    I take it you realized that the purpose of this thread is to talk about what did or did not go wrong in this particular case, and whether or not it is representative of a larger problem.

    The alternatives suggested to killing the 'thug' are just that; they are not what should have happened, but what could have happened instead. Debating why they may not have been used while - although not really - ignoring the specifics of this case amounts to either missing the point or offering arguments for the killing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    People are already talking about all the things he should have done. I thought I'd just bring something else to the table instead of saying all the hindsight things that everyone else already said. There isn't much to add there.
    I find it hard to read the following considerations as merely general comments about weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If you're aiming to shoot someone At All, the idea is imminent danger is there and present on your life. In which case, deadly force is authorized. And since its authorized, you shoot center mass. If you're Rambo/John Wayne and you've been six-shootin' your whole life, sure, aim for the shoulders. If you're cool as a cucumber under pressure, and being scared for your life and safety doesn't mess up your aim, I see no problem with it, and there are certainly situations where those people are there. Most people would not be able to though. It's a small, moving target, in comparison to center mass. [...]

    As big as that guy was, and with a knife, I wouldn't have gambled my life on a taser working before he got to me. It isn't a miracle weapon. It's a good one, but it won't work in all situations at all, and sometimes not even when it is a good situation for one. That isn't even counting the tenacity someone can have while on drugs.. things that would kill most people don't even affect those doped up on some drugs. And you never know--when people make stupid decisions like robbing a place and running at police, the suspicion of drug use is up there. There are plenty of stories of people running straight through bullets.. a taser wouldn't do much good in situations like that.
    Instead, they sound like justifications for deadly force, in this thread, sprinkled with details of this particular case.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I am saying if you're going to imagine alternatives, make them plausible. Tasers aren't reliable or always viable, and no where in current police codes are officers required to take armed people threatening danger on one's life down non-lethally. And there's a real reason why that is.. that people seemed to be ignoring here. The knife makes a huge difference in the weapon choice used. So I felt it worth addressing. Sorry you find that so annoying, but I'm really not defending the cop because I don't know what really happened to a T.
    Tasers present one alternative out of many. The fact that 'no where in current police codes are officers required to take armed people threatening danger on one's life down non-lethally' is part of the problem discussed in this thread, because it allows people to legally justify casual killing. I find it problematic that a knife has the power to turn a human being into a one-size-fits-all, faceless threat, even if it is just a worthless thug. Even granting that deadly force was called for, was it necessary to shoot the man ten times?

  6. #76
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    In the UK, the largest number of police deaths in one year (1982) was 11, with the vast majority of years (1900-2012) having less than half that. Given that the US population is about 5 times that of the UK, we might expect five times the number, or up to 55 police officers killed per year. Instead, our numbers are over twice that, going all the way back to the 1910-1920 time period, when both US and UK populations were much smaller.

    So, just what keeps so many more UK officers alive, despite the fact that the average officer on patrol has a night stick and not a gun? Could it be that they are trained to diffuse conflicts rather than to escalate them, and to work with the human aspect of a situation rather than simply the weapons/technology aspect? I suspect access to guns among the population is much more limited than in the U.S., but not to knives.
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In the UK, the largest number of police deaths in one year (1982) was 11, with the vast majority of years (1900-2012) having less than half that. Given that the US population is about 5 times that of the UK, we might expect five times the number, or up to 55 police officers killed per year. Instead, our numbers are over twice that, going all the way back to the 1910-1920 time period, when both US and UK populations were much smaller.

    So, just what keeps so many more UK officers alive, despite the fact that the average officer on patrol has a night stick and not a gun? Could it be that they are trained to diffuse conflicts rather than to escalate them, and to work with the human aspect of a situation rather than simply the weapons/technology aspect? I suspect access to guns among the population is much more limited than in the U.S., but not to knives.
    I would assume the number of criminals in the US who own guns, oftentimes illegally, account for the greater number of deaths among officers in the US. I think if you took a department of UK officers with nightsticks, along with whatever conflict resolution techniques they've been taught, and put them in a crime-ridden neighborhood in the US, not only would criminal activity increase, but more officers would be killed or beaten. That's just my opinion. These aren't your average law-abiding citizens. I, personally, would not want to live in a city where access to weapons is readily available to the public, legally or illegally, and not have armed law-enforcement.

    I'm trying to imagine how the officers in the video could have approached the situation in a diplomatic way and convinced the guy who just shoplifted and displayed a knife to bystanders to simply yield his weapon and comply. The way he stands on the corner of the street instead of running away after committing a crime almost seems like he's anticipating a confrontation with law-enforcement; certainly the way he aggressively approaches the officers when they do arrive supports that notion. Furthermore, it isn't prudent for officers to assume an individual doesn't have a firearm simply because he hasn't brandished one yet. The suspect is wearing a jacket in the video and very well could've had a holstered gun. Of course, those who insist on condemning law-enforcement will say in retrospect, "Well...he didn't have a gun." But put yourself in their shoes. If it was your safety on the line, are you going to take that for granted and make assumptions that might cost you your life?

    Officers in the US are trained to take control of a situation, not give that control over to criminals or come to mutually agreeable resolutions. It's necessary for police officers to establish authority when dealing with the public, especially in hostile situations. At any point during this altercation, the suspect could've complied and laid down his knife, and he would still be alive. He chose not to and instead approached the officers in an intimidating manner, yelling at them to shoot him while waving a knife. Let's be honest, if this guy was white instead of black, it wouldn't have even made the news because that's not a sensational story for the headlines.

  8. #78
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    ^ If he were white, it wouldn't have made the news because it wouldn't have happened.

    And, if I were the police officer on duty and I feared my life was on the line, I wouldn't park that close to a mentally disturbed man.
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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    ^ If he were white, it wouldn't have made the news because it wouldn't have happened.

    And, if I were the police officer on duty and I feared my life was on the line, I wouldn't park that close to a mentally disturbed man.
    Right...because a white man wielding a knife is much less dangerous than a black man. This highlights the racist bias underlying most of the condemnation police have received, as of late. It's almost as if the behavior of the perpetrators is completely irrelevant; their race is the primary concern.

    Are you familiar with these officers on a personal level? To assume their intentions were racially motivated and not the result of a guy approaching them with a weapon? You've essentially accused them of a hate crime and determined the suspect's skin color, not the crime he just committed or his actions afterward, were the biggest factor leading up to his shooting. It's appalling, really. This sort of prejudice. That's why it's pointless to even have these discussions.

  10. #80
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Right...because a white man wielding a knife is much less dangerous than a black man.
    It certainly seems to be the case in the US.

    This highlights the racist bias underlying most of the condemnation police have received, as of late. It's almost as if the behavior of the perpetrators is completely irrelevant; their race is the only concern.
    Regardless, his behaviour didn't warrant death.

    You've essentially accused them of a hate crime and determined the suspect's skin color, not the crime he just committed or his actions afterward, were the biggest factor leading up to his shooting. It's appalling, really. This sort of prejudice. That's why it's pointless to even have these discussions.
    I do believe there's a bias against African-American men, lets not forget that this happened less than 4 miles (~6km) from where Michael Brown was fatally shot roughly ten days before and he was unarmed. You shouldn't evade discussions around race especially since it's a contributing factor.
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