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  1. #61
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I'm not getting into this racism mess of a political debate. I just wanted to clarify some points.

    As far as where you aim the gun.. not everyone issued a gun is much above a marksman. If you're aiming to shoot someone At All, the idea is imminent danger is there and present on your life. In which case, deadly force is authorized. And since its authorized, you shoot center mass. If you're Rambo/John Wayne and you've been six-shootin' your whole life, sure, aim for the shoulders. If you're cool as a cucumber under pressure, and being scared for your life and safety doesn't mess up your aim, I see no problem with it, and there are certainly situations where those people are there. Most people would not be able to though. It's a small, moving target, in comparison to center mass.

    The biggest problem with aiming for shoulders is that there's a field of shot groups you shoot at.. Aiming at the shoulders puts the head in that group. You jerk that trigger just slightly wrong, and there goes the head-- practically no chance of survival versus some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    It's possible, you know, when you use conductive energy devices and pepper spray.
    Those have their limits. First, with pepper spray, you have to realize you're essentially pepper spraying the target *and* yourself. The residual spray is bad enough to cripple someone. Nothing worse than trying to stop someone and turning into an even easier target. We had to train with pepper spray via being sprayed and dealing with the pain for no less than 7 minutes before we could wash it off.. my eyes were swollen and sensitive to light for 2 days afterwards. I wouldn't have been able to stop someone if my life depended on it within half a second of being sprayed. The entire air around the area we were training in was burning people that weren't even part of the training. I didn't carry it. It's really potent stuff, and not really ideal except in close quarters situations like jails and cars or when you can toss the spray far away from you and don gear to protect you.

    Tasers only work so far as well. That was a pretty damn huge guy... anyone on adrenaline, huge, used to it, etc. etc. It's not guaranteed to work. I wish it were--I think many police officers would carry ONLY tasers if they had the range, accuracy, and subduing power that people think they magically do. Alas, they don't. It works in some situations, but not others at all. As big as that guy was, and with a knife, I wouldn't have gambled my life on a taser working before he got to me. It isn't a miracle weapon. It's a good one, but it won't work in all situations at all, and sometimes not even when it is a good situation for one. That isn't even counting the tenacity someone can have while on drugs.. things that would kill most people don't even affect those doped up on some drugs. And you never know--when people make stupid decisions like robbing a place and running at police, the suspicion of drug use is up there. There are plenty of stories of people running straight through bullets.. a taser wouldn't do much good in situations like that.


    Just trying to give some perspectives to everyone always thinking tasers and stuff were magic weapons. If they worked as great as people say they did, it'd be all common cops carry because they're cheaper than real guns.

    And who actually expects the police to do this?
    In general, outside of this? More than you'd think. People don't know the ins and outs of everything, but they know enough to formulate opinions, and it all goes downhill from there.
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  2. #62
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Those have their limits. First, with pepper spray, you have to realize you're essentially pepper spraying the target *and* yourself. The residual spray is bad enough to cripple someone. Nothing worse than trying to stop someone and turning into an even easier target. We had to train with pepper spray via being sprayed and dealing with the pain for no less than 7 minutes before we could wash it off.. my eyes were swollen and sensitive to light for 2 days afterwards. I wouldn't have been able to stop someone if my life depended on it within half a second of being sprayed. The entire air around the area we were training in was burning people that weren't even part of the training. I didn't carry it. It's really potent stuff, and not really ideal except in close quarters situations like jails and cars or when you can toss the spray far away from you and don gear to protect you.
    IIRC, the effective range varies a bit depending on if it's spray, stream, or foam. But it's all fairly short. And there are certain people who seem to be immune to it. And as I have mentioned before, sometimes suspects die from being sprayed because they have preexisting respiratory problems.

    Tasers only work so far as well. That was a pretty damn huge guy... anyone on adrenaline, huge, used to it, etc. etc. It's not guaranteed to work. I wish it were--I think many police officers would carry ONLY tasers if they had the range, accuracy, and subduing power that people think they magically do. Alas, they don't. It works in some situations, but not others at all. As big as that guy was, and with a knife, I wouldn't have gambled my life on a taser working before he got to me. It isn't a miracle weapon. It's a good one, but it won't work in all situations at all, and sometimes not even when it is a good situation for one. That isn't even counting the tenacity someone can have while on drugs.. things that would kill most people don't even affect those doped up on some drugs. And you never know--when people make stupid decisions like robbing a place and running at police, the suspicion of drug use is up there. There are plenty of stories of people running straight through bullets.. a taser wouldn't do much good in situations like that.


    Just trying to give some perspectives to everyone always thinking tasers and stuff were magic weapons. If they worked as great as people say they did, it'd be all common cops carry because they're cheaper than real guns.
    IIRC, the effective range of an X26 is rated at 7 yards, or 21 feet. A running human can cover that distance in about a second. And if the probes don't make a solid circuit the current won't do anything. Some people can get right back up and keep fighting after the 5 second ride. You can give another zap, but the person may pull out the probes or break the wires.

    There was one really crazy fight in my city about a year ago. It was 1 suspect and like 3 cops. I think it happened in a living room. The guy was on drugs and violent. Tasers did not succeed in putting him down. Spraying didn't seem to have much effect. One officer brought the beanbag shotgun from his car and nailed the guy with it. That didn't seem to slow him down at all. So the officers ended up using their batons. Last I heard he was still in a coma.

    It's crappy that it turned out that way, but the guy just did not stop fighting until the officers had literally beaten him senseless.
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  3. #63
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ That's not even mentioning you only have one shot with the taser, and that heavy clothing is effective enough cover from tasers.. or the fact that hitting the wrong spot with a taser could really kill someone effectively.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  4. #64
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    This thread has come to the attention of the moderators due to the large number of posts that project thoughts, feelings, and values onto another member in a hyperbolic and/or largely unsupported fashion. This is just another form of bullying, akin to ad hominem attacks in that it focuses on the member rather than his/her arguments. It creates needless hostility and tension without advancing the discussion constructively.

    We are considering what further action might be necessary in this thread. Meanwhile, please cease and desist from this manner of posting.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #65
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    I agree that every weapon has its disadvantages however even after watching the video multiple times; I still think that it’s excessive and cold-blooded. They shot him twelve times and this is compounded by the fact that he was mental disturbed and the witnesses were relatively calm. The atmosphere just didn’t match the brutality.

    Furthermore, why did they position themselves so close to him? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to park further away and take charge there? He provoked them and it seemed as if they just wanted to establish their authority instead of responding to an urgent situation. I find it hard to believe it’s not racially motivated.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Tasers only work so far as well. That was a pretty damn huge guy... anyone on adrenaline, huge, used to it, etc. etc. It's not guaranteed to work.
    Hmmm… I don’t know if I agree that he was a huge guy, tall yes but not that big, he doesn’t seem “beefy”. Also, he stood and yelled at the police then moved back to go over the fence then charged toward them...? He seemed to be walking slow enough to be tasered.

    I wish it were--I think many police officers would carry ONLY tasers if they had the range, accuracy, and subduing power that people think they magically do.
    Speculation?

    The average taser works at a distance of 15-20 feet (4-6 meters) which, judging by the video, it could have been done.

    As big as that guy was, and with a knife, I wouldn't have gambled my life on a taser working before he got to me. It isn't a miracle weapon. It's a good one, but it won't work in all situations at all, and sometimes not even when it is a good situation for one.
    No, I don’t think they are but it seems like it could’ve worked in this situation.

    That isn't even counting the tenacity someone can have while on drugs.. things that would kill most people don't even affect those doped up on some drugs. And you never know--when people make stupid decisions like robbing a place and running at police, the suspicion of drug use is up there. There are plenty of stories of people running straight through bullets a taser wouldn't do much good in situations like that.
    You take risks every time you use a weapon and some weapons obviously have fewer risks. In this case, you’re taking the risk that they’re not on drugs.

    I appreciate your insight, kyuuei but it just doesn’t add up for me.
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  6. #66
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    I agree that every weapon has its disadvantages however even after watching the video multiple times; I still think that it’s excessive and cold-blooded. They shot him twelve times and this is compounded by the fact that he was mental disturbed and the witnesses were relatively calm. The atmosphere just didn’t match the brutality.

    Furthermore, why did they position themselves so close to him? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to park further away and take charge there? He provoked them and it seemed as if they just wanted to establish their authority instead of responding to an urgent situation. I find it hard to believe it’s not racially motivated.



    Hmmm… I don’t know if I agree that he was a huge guy, tall yes but not that big, he doesn’t seem “beefy”. Also, he stood and yelled at the police then moved back to go over the fence then charged toward them...? He seemed to be walking slow enough to be tasered.



    Speculation?

    The average taser works at a distance of 15-20 feet (4-6 meters) which, judging by the video, it could have been done.



    No, I don’t think they are but it seems like it could’ve worked in this situation.



    You take risks every time you use a weapon and some weapons obviously have fewer risks. In this case, you’re taking the risk that they’re not on drugs.

    I appreciate your insight, kyuuei but it just doesn’t add up for me.
    As I said in the first post. I don't want to get into the political debate side of things. My interest is in the weapon use itself. Every point you're making is, "could have". All I'm saying is... it's easy when it's your life not on the line to say things "could" work. When you're in a position for a more guaranteed result, "could have" doesn't seem so great anymore. If I were practicing self defense for over 3 years, I still wouldn't want to pit what I've learned against a stranger if I didn't absolutely have no other choice. For every point you're making saying something could have work, there is just as likely a possibility that it could have not work. And that's the gamble and danger with tasers.

    There are plenty of situations where tasers are effective and there is a reason they are used. It's why I believe police officers should always roll in pairs vs solo. You get to know the same guys all the time, work with the same people consistently, someone can have a weapon on the guy while you attempt a taser or other non-lethal. You can have a variety of weapons on two personnel vs making one guy carry it all. You can know that your buddy will shoot someone if your non-lethal attempt fails. It makes for much less political mess, more job security, and less danger overall than waiting for back up. But that's not cost effective nor practical in all situations, and thus won't be implemented anytime soon.
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  7. #67
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Every point you're making is, "could have". All I'm saying is... it's easy when it's your life not on the line to say things "could" work. When you're in a position for a more guaranteed result, "could have" doesn't seem so great anymore.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    As I said in the first post. I don't want to get into the political debate side of things. My interest is in the weapon use itself. Every point you're making is, "could have". All I'm saying is... it's easy when it's your life not on the line to say things "could" work. When you're in a position for a more guaranteed result, "could have" doesn't seem so great anymore. If I were practicing self defense for over 3 years, I still wouldn't want to pit what I've learned against a stranger if I didn't absolutely have no other choice. For every point you're making saying something could have work, there is just as likely a possibility that it could have not work. And that's the gamble and danger with tasers.
    The audacity of using the 'better safe than sorry' argument to defend this particular killing is mind-boggling. There were two policemen, two guns, plenty of space. There were a million ways to solve the situation; shooting after ten seconds of shouting was just the easiest for them. Of course, bad guys deserve to die, anyway. I bet both killers are pro-life when it comes to abortion.

  9. #69
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    A Thug opted out by way of "suicide by COP".

    In the end, two officers safely returned home to their families & BFD there's one less Thug in the world. Win-Win

  10. #70
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The audacity of using the 'better safe than sorry' argument to defend this particular killing is mind-boggling. There were two policemen, two guns, plenty of space. There were a million ways to solve the situation; shooting after ten seconds of shouting was just the easiest for them. Of course, bad guys deserve to die, anyway. I bet both killers are pro-life when it comes to abortion.
    Considering I prefaced everything with a "I refuse to debate the politics of this particular situation, but rather would like to discuss the fact that people are saying inaccurate things about their position pertaining weapons" before I said what I was actually willing to talk about, maybe next time I should just make a macro to c&p after every single post.

    Even having two people there... you don't always know what the other guy is doing or who he is. You hope he's a great cop--but maybe he isn't. Maybe the taser fails, you get cut, and this guy just stands there or runs for cover before shooting. I haven't seen anything on who the guys were, if they were partners, if they were two random cops responding, I don't know and I don't really have the time to invest into finding all those particulars out. But it is worth it to note that even with more than one person there, NOT knowing who you're working beside is a great cause to assume they might not save your life. Ideally sure, all cops are trained and will fight for their brothers... in reality, it isn't always so, and I wouldn't gamble my life on that brotherly bond existing in this day and age with Stranger Joe either.

    I still maintain that people don't realize how quickly one can be killed if they make the wrong decision. 10 seconds of shouting is a LONG time of shouting before deciding to fire. Shouting takes a second. "Stop" takes a fraction of a second. If someone isn't going to restrain themselves after 10 seconds of shouting, chances are they aren't going to stop until they get to you. They don't typically have changes of heart when they're in your face. If you heard a woman shouting and screaming "STOP! STOP IT!" for 10 seconds before you did anything about it, I'd say you were almost trying to ignore the situation. It only takes one shout to know something is wrong and more than 2-3 seconds to know it might not stop without someone intervening.
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