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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The punishment for armed robbery is not death.

    Brown is a martyr? For what? Martyrs have causes. What was Brown's cause?
    There was none, but apologists are making a cause up for him.

    From my understanding he was psychotic and aggressive. I find it hard to be sympathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You have to make split second decisions once the conflict has initiated, but the police don't have to immediately initiate the conflict without surveying the scene first. Imagine the military executing an attack without prior reconnaissance. Anyone would say that's idiotic. Yet when the police do the same thing, people defend them. That's insane.
    The impression I have got is that the police chanced upon Brown, who showed signs of aggression towards them. In practice, conflict is initiated once both parties are close enough to each other to cause harm, and one has expressed an intention to do so (verbally and/or through actions).

    I don't defend the police, but I refuse to see a victim. The romanticizing of "victims'" character by media and left-wing groups is completely inappropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's true, but I wouldn't have rushed in and put myself into a precarious situation without having a freaking clue what was actually going on. I'm far more careful and calculating than the buffoons in the video.
    You would already have been in a situation like that simply by being close to a psychotic individual. Put it this way; if a civilian had shot Brown in the same circumstances, would you feel any differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't disagree with that sentiment, but you'll find entire police departments that disagree.

    Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops - ABC News

    The police don't want intelligent people to join. Intelligent people are more likely to question orders, question authority. Police departments want followers, not independent thinkers. The Blue Line is more important than the Constitution.
    Of course they don't, and here we agree. I am well aware of how a state (and state institutions) tends to favour obedience and foster low intelligence amongst its servants for this purpose. However, whether you are a genius or just average makes no differences when you get adrenaline rushes. I imagine that these differences would shine just as much if not more in office and everyday patrol work.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Patrol cops don't normally have rubber bullets.
    Do they have tasers? Pepper spray? There are many possible options. If patrol officers aren't carrying these things...then wtf.

    Less lethal. Some people die from being pepper sprayed because they have preexisting respiratory problems. And there are plenty of people who have died after being zapped with a Taser.
    So use a weapon that is far more likely to kill? That's sound reasoning.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Why do I have to view myself as an officer?

    Is there a difference between what an officer would get away with and what a citizen would get away with?

    If the video speaks for itself why did the officers lie about how threatening he was being?
    As a citizen, you would be justified in using lethal force to defend yourself in that situation, as well.

    These officers had a job to do. It's their responsibility to respond to burglaries and robberies. When they see a suspect with a weapon, they draw their firearms and command the suspect to drop his weapon. If the suspect then proceeds to approach the officers with said weapon in his hands, regardless of his motivations, the officers have every reason to believe that he intends to use it. The suggestion that the cops should have put their firearms away and pulled out tasers or pepper spray is asinine and completely unrealistic in this situation. I can't believe anyone with a rational mind is even questioning this.

    If you want to crucify a police officer, how about the one who recently put a guy into a chokehold (which was against department policy) and killed him, then smiled like a douche for the camera. Although the suspect had a lengthy criminal record (30+ arrests) and wasn't cooperating with police, he didn't appear to be threatening or violent at the time and there were more than enough officers to apprehend him without lethal force.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    There was none, but apologists are making a cause up for him.

    From my understanding he was psychotic and aggressive. I find it hard to be sympathetic.



    The impression I have got is that the police chanced upon Brown, who showed signs of aggression towards them. In practice, conflict is initiated once both parties are close enough to each other to cause harm, and one has expressed an intention to do so (verbally and/or through actions).

    I don't defend the police, but I refuse to see a victim. The romanticizing of "victims'" character by media and left-wing groups is completely inappropriate.

    You would already have been in a situation like that simply by being close to a psychotic individual. Put it this way; if a civilian had shot Brown in the same circumstances, would you feel any differently?
    This thread isn't about Brown, it's about Powell.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #45
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    As a citizen, you would be justified in using lethal force to defend yourself in that situation, as well.
    A citizen could roll their SUV up onto the curb, jump out and start screaming at the guy, then shoot him when he doesn't obey? Bullshit. That citizen would be immediately arrested and prosecuted for murder.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #46
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    If you want to crucify a police officer, how about the one who recently put a guy into a chokehold (which was against department policy) and killed him, then smiled like a douche for the camera. Although the suspect had a lengthy criminal record (30+ arrests) and wasn't cooperating with police, he didn't appear to be threatening or violent at the time and there were more than enough officers to apprehend him without lethal force.
    At least you're willing to talk some sense. But there's a hell of a lot of dirty cops like that guy and the real problem is that the vast majority of cops won't hold them accountable.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    A citizen could roll their SUV up onto the curb, jump out and start screaming at the guy, then shoot him when he doesn't obey? Bullshit. That citizen would be immediately arrested and prosecuted for murder.
    You also can't tell a cop you'll "bust his head" without consequence.
    But he can.

    Police to Al Jazeera journalist near Ferguson: '''I'''ll bust your head''' | Al Jazeera America

  8. #48
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Do they have tasers? Pepper spray? There are many possible options. If patrol officers aren't carrying these things...then wtf.
    Patrol cops typically have OC spray, a Taser, and a baton on their belts. A Taser can only be fired once. If the probes fail to launch properly, miss the target or don't make an effective circuit, the Taser is basically a fancy paperweight and you have to go to something else.

    So use a weapon that is far more likely to kill? That's sound reasoning.
    I was explaining why they are not considered non lethal.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    A citizen could roll their SUV up onto the curb, jump out and start screaming at the guy, then shoot him when he doesn't obey? Bullshit. That citizen would be immediately arrested and prosecuted for murder.
    Though citizens do have certain rights to make arrests for misdemeanors and felonies, those arresting powers are much more limited than law enforcement. Cops aren't vigilantes. It's their job to respond to these calls. Yelling at a suspect to drop a weapon who just shoplifted from a store is perfectly acceptable and understandable. You have the most fucked up logic, dude. You've expressed no judgement at the guy for walking into a store and stealing someone else's property, but you're offended that a cop would yell at him to drop his weapon? You should go live in some hippy commune. You've gotta be smokin' something.

  10. #50
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Also, empirical evidence that police don't have to go around killing people.



    Plenty of knife crime in the UK yet they manage to not fill knife carriers full of lead.
    I believe it was Benjamin Disraeli who said that some people use statistics the way a drunk uses a lamp post; support rather than illumination. While some shootings in US are certainly unjustified, the comparison is quite ham-fisted.

    Law enforcement in Japan is draconian in ways most Americans can't comprehend and would never tolerate. Also, Japan has an unusually elderly population. Violent crime is largely committed by younger people, of which Japan has relatively few.

    Germany also has a rapidly aging population.

    Regular patrol cops in the UK don't have sidearms.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

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