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  1. #61
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Adam, this might also interest you, in the sense that you can dismiss it immediately.

    Jim Fisher True Crime: Police Involved Shooting Statistics: A National One-Year Summary

    In 2011, according to data I collected, police officers in the United States shot 1,146 people, killing 607. Between January 1, 2011 and January 1, 2012 I used the Internet to compile a national database of police involved shootings. The term "police involved shooting" pertains to law enforcement officers who, in the line of duty, discharge their guns. When journalists and police administrators use the term, they include the shooting of animals and shots that miss their targets. My case files only include instances in which a person is either killed or wounded by police gunfire. My data also includes off-duty officers who discharged their weapons in law enforcement situations. They don't include, for example, officers using their firearms to resolve personal disputes.

    I collected this data myself because the U.S. Government doesn't. There is no national database dedicated to police involved shootings. Alan Maimon, in his article, "National Data on Shootings by Police Not Collected," published on November 28, 2011 in the "Las Vegas Review-Journal," wrote "The nation's leading law enforcement agency [FBI] collects vast amounts of information on crime nationwide, but missing from this clearinghouse are statistics on where, how often, and under what circumstances police use deadly force. In fact, no one anywhere comprehensively tracks the most significant act police can do in the line of duty: take a life."

    Since the government keeps statistics on just about everything, why no national stats on something this important? The answer is simple: they don't want us to know. Why? Because police shoot a lot more people than we think, and the government, while good at statistics, is also good at secrecy.

    The government does maintain records on how many police officers are killed every year in the line of duty. In 2010, 59 officers were shot to death among 122 killed while on the job. This marked a 20 percent jump from 2009 when 49 officers were killed by gunfire. In 2011, 173 officers died, from all causes, in the line of duty. The fact police officers feel they are increasingly under attack from the public may help explain why they are shooting so many citizens.
    Who The Police Shoot

    A vast majority of the people shot by the police in 2011 were men between the ages 25 and 40 who had histories of crime. Overall, people shot by the police were much older than the typical first-time arrestee. A significant number of the people wounded and killed by the authorities were over fifty, some in their eighties. In 2011, the police shot two 15-year-olds, and a girl who was 16.

    The police shot, in 2011, about 50 women, most of whom were armed with knives and had histories of emotional distress. Overall, about a quarter of those shot were either mentally ill and/or suicidal. Many of these were "suicide-by-cop" cases.

    Most police shooting victims were armed with handguns. The next most common weapon involved vehicles (used as weapons), followed by knives (and other sharp objects), shotguns, and rifles. Very few of these people carried assault weapons, and a small percentage were unarmed. About 50 subjects were armed with BB-guns, pellet guns or replica firearms.

    The situations that brought police shooters and their targets together included domestic and other disturbances; crimes in progress such as robbery, assault and carjacking; the execution of arrest warrants; drug raids; gang activities; routine traffic stops; car chases; and standoff and hostage events.

    Women make up about 15 percent of the nation's uniformed police services. During 2011, about 25 female police officers wounded or killed civilians. None of these officers had shot anyone in the past. While the vast majority of police officers never fire their guns in the line of duty, 15 officers who did shoot someone in 2011, had shot at least one person before. (This figure is probably low because police departments don't like to report such statistics.) Most police shootings involved members of police departments followed by sheriff's deputies, the state police, and federal officers. These shootings took place in big cities, suburban areas, towns, and in rural areas. Big city shootings comprised about half of these violent confrontations in 2011.

    Police Shooting Investigations

    Almost all police involved shootings, while investigated by special units, prosecutor's offices, or an outside police agency, were investigated by governmental law enforcement personnel. It is perhaps not surprising that more than 95 percent of all police involved shootings were ruled administratively and legally justiified. A handful of cases led to wrongful death lawsuits. Even fewer will result in the criminal prosecution of officers. Critics of the system have called for the establishment of completely independent investigative agencies in cases of police involved shootings.
    Where People Were Shot

    Most Deadly States

    California 183 total (102 fatal)
    Florida 96 (49)
    Illinois 64 (26)
    Texas 58 (26)
    New York 49 (23)
    Pennsylvania 49 (23)
    Ohio 45 (28)
    Arizona 45 (27)
    Maryland 41 (16)
    Washington 39 (29)

    Least Deadly States

    Delaware 0
    Vermont 0
    North Dakota 1
    Wyoming 2 (1)
    Alaska 2 (2)
    Montana 3 (2)
    South Dakota 3 (3)
    Hawai 4 (3)
    Conneticut 6 (1)
    West Virginia 6 (5)
    New Hampshire 6 (5)
    Idaho 7 (2)
    Kansas 7 (5)

    Most Deadly Cities

    Chicago 46 total (10 fatal)
    Los Angeles 22 (14)
    Philadelphia 17 (7)
    Las Vegas 17 (15)
    New York City 16 (6)
    Phoenix 15 (10)
    Baltimore 15 (5)
    Columbus, OH 14 (8)
    Atlanta 12 (4)
    St. Louis 11 (3)
    Cleveland 10 (7)
    Miami 10 (6)
    Houston 10 (3)

    Least Deadly Cities

    Boston 1
    New Orleans 1 (1)
    Portland, ME 1
    Buffalo 2
    Detroit 2 (1)
    Seattle 2 (1)
    Denver 2 (2)
    Pittsburgh 3 (1)

    Cities with High Per Capita Shooting Rates

    Fresno, CA 9 total (4 fatal)
    Tucson, AZ 8 (6)
    Aurora, CO 7 (6)
    Oakland, CA 7 (6)
    San Jose, CA 7 (3)
    Albuquerque, NM 6 (5)
    Mesa, AZ 6 (2)
    Jacksonville, FL 5 (4)
    Syracuse, NY 5 (3)
    Orlando, FL 5 (2)
    N. Miami Beach, FL 5 (2)
    Little Rock, Ark. 5 (1)
    Yakima, WA 4 (1)
    Bakersfield, CA 4 (3)
    Long Beach, CA 4 (2)
    Garden Grove, CA 4 (3)
    Redding, CA 4 (2)
    New York City

    In 1971, police officers in New York City shot 314 people, killing 93. (In California, the state with the most police involved shootings in 2011, the police shot 183, killing 102.) In 2010, New York City police shot 24, killing 8. Last year, in the nation's largest city, the police shot 16, killing 6. In Columbus, Ohio, a city one eighth the size of New York, the police shot 14, killing 8. Statistical diversities like this suggest that in the cities with the highest per capita shooting rates, better people ought to be hired, or the existing forces need a lot more training in the use of deadly force.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #62
    Senior Member Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Adam, this might also interest you, in the sense that you can dismiss it immediately.
    First quote: Yes, the government should collect this data.


    Second quote:
    Almost all police involved shootings, while investigated by special units, prosecutor's offices, or an outside police agency, were investigated by governmental law enforcement personnel. It is perhaps not surprising that more than 95 percent of all police involved shootings were ruled administratively and legally justified. A handful of cases led to wrongful death lawsuits. Even fewer will result in the criminal prosecution of officers. Critics of the system have called for the establishment of completely independent investigative agencies in cases of police involved shootings.
    It is indeed not surprising, considering what he wrote above:
    Most police shooting victims were armed with handguns. The next most common weapon involved vehicles (used as weapons), followed by knives (and other sharp objects), shotguns, and rifles. Very few of these people carried assault weapons, and a small percentage were unarmed. About 50 subjects were armed with BB-guns, pellet guns or replica firearms.
    Underscored part is the only bit where there can be any question of injustice.


    Fourth quote:
    In 1971, police officers in New York City shot 314 people, killing 93. (In California, the state with the most police involved shootings in 2011, the police shot 183, killing 102.) In 2010, New York City police shot 24, killing 8. Last year, in the nation's largest city, the police shot 16, killing 6. In Columbus, Ohio, a city one eighth the size of New York, the police shot 14, killing 8. Statistical diversities like this suggest that in the cities with the highest per capita shooting rates, better people ought to be hired, or the existing forces need a lot more training in the use of deadly force.
    First he mentions data from 1971 NYC. (Apple)
    Then he mentions data from 2011 California, a state. (Orange)
    Then data from NYC again, but this time 2010. (Banana)
    NYC again, this time 2012, comparing it to Columbus, OH data of the same year. (Peaches)

    Wielding the above he goes on to make a grand conclusive statement about the quality and training of employees, thus proving once and for all that he is a dumbass with a fruit basket. Population numbers do not tell the entire tale - far from it. One should put the shooting stats in relation to the crime stats, which in reality are the only ones that matter. Here, let me do the work for you: GQ City Crime Rate Ranking Report for 2012. Higher is worse. Compare New York City to Columbus, OH. There is a good reason why Columbus is worse off than NYC when it comes to police shootings: It's because the former is a crime-ridden shithole, much like NYC during the crack epidemic, or modern Detroit.
    ‘Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.’

    ‘And we will have made great strides in equality,
    when few have too much and fewer too little.’.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    First quote: Yes, the government should collect this data.
    But they don't.

    Second quote:


    It is indeed not surprising, considering what he wrote above:


    Underscored part is the only bit where there can be any question of injustice.
    When the police shoot someone, they always "had a gun". Or they had something that looked like a gun. Or they were reaching for a gun. Or they were reaching for the officer's gun. The fact that there is no transparency in these investigations makes all findings by the police highly questionable. I don't trust them any more than I trust the NSA to police itself. What we're looking at with those government numbers is that absolute best case scenario. Reality is likely far worse. Reality certainly isn't any better than those numbers.


    First he mentions data from 1971 NYC. (Apple)
    Then he mentions data from 2011 California, a state. (Orange)
    Then data from NYC again, but this time 2010. (Banana)
    NYC again, this time 2012, comparing it to Columbus, OH data of the same year. (Peaches)

    Wielding the above he goes on to make a grand conclusive statement about the quality and training of employees, thus proving once and for all that he is a dumbass with a fruit basket. Population numbers do not tell the entire tale - far from it. One should put the shooting stats in relation to the crime stats, which in reality are the only ones that matter. Here, let me do the work for you: GQ City Crime Rate Ranking Report for 2012. Higher is worse. Compare New York City to Columbus, OH. There is a good reason why Columbus is worse off than NYC when it comes to police shootings: It's because the former is a crime-ridden shithole, much like NYC during the crack epidemic, or modern Detroit.
    Columbus, Ohio has a murder rate roughly double of the murder rate of New York City, yet the police shoot 8 times as many people, per capita. If your argument was valid, we should expect to see twice as many shootings, but that's not what we see.

    Crime rate in Columbus, Ohio (OH): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers statistics

    Crime rate in New York, New York (NY): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers statistics

    I like my links more. They are not meaningless composites. You can see the rate of each type of crime. The numbers in your link aren't useful for this type of analysis.

    One thing I find interesting is that violent crime has been declining, nationwide, for more than 20 years, yet police shootings have not.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #64
    Senior Member Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Columbus, Ohio has a murder rate roughly double of the murder rate of New York City, yet the police shoot 8 times as many people, per capita. If your argument was valid, we should expect to see twice as many shootings, but that's not what we see.
    Murder rate is not the only thing that is relevant.

    Columbus has:
    2.2 as many murders.
    5.1 as many rapes.
    1.7 as many robberies.
    0.4 as many assaults.
    8.6 as many burglaries.
    2.8 as much theft.
    4.7 as much auto theft.

    Red: Justified shooting very likely
    Orange: Justified shooting probable
    Green: Justified shooting improbable

    Summing high-probability situations gives 17. One could make the case that Columbus is in fact performing quite well.
    ‘Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.’

    ‘And we will have made great strides in equality,
    when few have too much and fewer too little.’.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Murder rate is not the only thing that is relevant.
    It is by far the most relevant.

    The police should not be shooting burglars. That is a non-violent crime.
    The police should not be shooting people for auto theft. That is a non-violent crime.
    Armed robbery I could see, if they catch someone in the act, but not a "strong-arm" (unarmed) robbery like what Michael Brown did.

    Columbus has:
    2.2 as many murders.
    5.1 as many rapes.
    1.7 as many robberies.
    0.4 as many assaults.
    8.6 as many burglaries.
    2.8 as much theft.
    4.7 as much auto theft.

    Red: Justified shooting very likely
    Orange: Justified shooting probable
    Green: Justified shooting improbable

    Summing high-probability situations gives 17. One could make the case that Columbus is in fact performing quite well.
    LOL, what sort of analysis is this? You wouldn't sum the "high-probability" situations, you would average them. Your post has convinced me that you have no idea how to properly analyze statistics. You suck at math. Seriously. Don't even pretend like you know what you're doing. You don't have a clue.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #66
    Senior Member Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The police should not be shooting burglars. That is a non-violent crime.
    Armed burglary.

    The police should not be shooting people for auto theft. That is a non-violent crime.
    Cars can be used as weapons.

    The colours specify the probability of shooting being justified, i.e. any scenario in which the police judges his own life, or that of others', to be at risk.

    LOL, what sort of analysis is this? You wouldn't sum the "high-probability" situations, you would average them. Your post has convinced me that you have no idea how to properly analyze statistics. You suck at math. Seriously. Don't even pretend like you know what you're doing. You don't have a clue.
    You are reaching beyond the little brown skidmark worth's of statistics you have picked up from popular science shows; that you equate statistics with mathematics is proof of this. Tell me, why do you think you should average "high-probability" situations, contra summing them as I have?
    ‘Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.’

    ‘And we will have made great strides in equality,
    when few have too much and fewer too little.’.

  7. #67
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The police should not be shooting burglars. That is a non-violent crime.
    The police should not be shooting people for auto theft. That is a non-violent crime.
    Armed robbery I could see, if they catch someone in the act, but not a "strong-arm" (unarmed) robbery like what Michael Brown did.
    Apparently you are unfamiliar with the use-of-force continuum. Here it is as taught to me buy a guy who was a Santa Barbara county deputy for 20+ years and is currently an instructor for local agencies and also teaches administration of justice.

    Verbal: Giving directives to a non-violent person who does not appear to be armed.

    Hands-on: Exactly what it sounds like.

    Less-lethal: If a person is violent (punching, kicking, biting, etc.) you go for less-lethal weapons. That would be Taser, OC, baton, beanbag shotgun. What ever is handiest at the moment.

    Lethal: If a person appears to be armed (gun, knife, bat, etc.) you approach with a gun (sidearm, rifle, shotgun) ready. If the person points a gun at you or attacks with a weapon (that would include attempting vehicular homicide) you shoot for the center of mass. If that does not seem to be working, you go for the head. Lethal force is also justified if you are in fear for your life for some other reason, such as being choked by someone who is significantly larger than you. Due to being much smaller on average, female cops are usually given more leeway in the use of lethal force.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  8. #68
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Armed burglary.
    Do those cities even report armed burglaries as burglaries? Or do they report them as something else? It would make a lot more sense to classify a burglary that leads to murder as simply a murder and not a burglary (and certainly not both, cities would be inflating their own crime statistics).

    Cars can be used as weapons.

    The colours specify the probability of shooting being justified, i.e. any scenario in which the police judges his own life, or that of others', to be at risk.
    Anything can be used as a weapon. You have a really low standard for the police to be able to kill people.

    You are reaching beyond the little brown skidmark worth's of statistics you have picked up from popular science shows; that you equate statistics with mathematics is proof of this. Tell me, why do you think you should average "high-probability" situations, contra summing them as I have?
    Statistics is a subset of mathematics and you're talking to an engineer who has certainly studied statistics more than you have.

    Crime rates
    City A:
    Murder 5
    Robbery 5
    Rape 5
    Assault 5

    City B:
    Murder 10 (2.0 times City A)
    Robbery 10 (2.0 times City A)
    Rape 10 (2.0 times City A)
    Assault 10 (2.0 times City A)

    Using your method, the crime rate in City B would be 8 times the crime rate in City A (2+2+2+2) when the crime rate is clearly double ((2+2+2+2)/4). If you still don't understand after this simple demonstration, you are hopeless.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #69
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Apparently you are unfamiliar with the use-of-force continuum. Here it is as taught to me buy a guy who was a Santa Barbara county deputy for 20+ years and is currently an instructor for local agencies and also teaches administration of justice.

    Verbal: Giving directives to a non-violent person who does not appear to be armed.

    Hands-on: Exactly what it sounds like.

    Less-lethal: If a person is violent (punching, kicking, biting, etc.) you go for less-lethal weapons. That would be Taser, OC, baton, beanbag shotgun. What ever is handiest at the moment.

    Lethal: If a person appears to be armed (gun, knife, bat, etc.) you approach with a gun (sidearm, rifle, shotgun) ready. If the person points a gun at you or attacks with a weapon (that would include attempting vehicular homicide) you shoot for the center of mass. If that does not seem to be working, you go for the head. Lethal force is also justified if you are in fear for your life for some other reason, such as being choked by someone who is significantly larger than you. Due to being much smaller on average, female cops are usually given more leeway in the use of lethal force.
    Regardless of what they may have been taught, lots of police officers are not following this.

    Also, I seriously doubt the police are catching very many people in the act of committing these crimes. For the vast majority of crimes, the police are merely record keepers.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #70
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Calling a police officer a "cop" may have been an insult in the past, but it's not in 2014 in the US.
    This is true. Pejorative language is the norm in the USA whether it is sexual, or about the democratically elected government, or the police, or even Sigmund Freud, or intellectuals, or critics.

    So pejorative language is a form of hate speech used right across the USA.

    And such pejorative language is a form of psychological defence.

    And whereas psychology analyses psychological defences, cults validate psychological defences, just like mbti.

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