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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Default USA vs nazis vs USSR in ww2

    I heard that often americans think(and are educated in school) that they had some major influence on winning nazis in ww2 and that USA was some sort of savior in the war against nazis. Which i find rather funny because, well it was soviet union doing most of the work and could even after almost alone beating nazis being able to threaten USA. I mean even one big battles by soviets was much larger than all of the battles in western front combined.

    I mean look at the nazi kills in eastern front(russian border) vs western front(brits, france, usa and their allies together):

    Eastern front:
    Stalingrad: 1.8 million
    Siege of Leningrad: 1.5 million
    Moscow 1941-42: 700,000
    Smolensk 1941: 500,000
    Kiev 1941: 400,000
    Vorenesh 1942: 370,000
    Belarus 1941: 370,000
    2nd Rzhev-Sychevka: 270,000
    Caucasus 1942: 260,000
    Kursk: 230,000
    Lower Dnieper: 170,000
    Kongsberg: 170,000
    Rostov: 150,000
    Budapest: 130,000
    and others with less killed

    Western front:
    Battle of France 180,000
    Normandy: 132,000
    El Alamein: 70,000
    Battle of the Bulge: 38,000

    I m interested on hearing from people who lived in USA if these numbers(or something similar to the numbers) were taught at school or did they actually tell that USA did much more vs nazis than basically just appear after war was nearly over to steal nazi technology? Does this info come to you as a surprise and does it conflict much of what you had learned about USA vs nazi in ww2?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    [...]I m interested on hearing from people who lived in USA if these numbers(or something similar to the numbers) were taught at school or did they actually tell that USA did much more vs nazis than basically just appear after war was nearly over to steal nazi technology? Does this info come to you as a surprise and does it conflict much of what you had learned about USA vs nazi in ww2?
    I was aware of those numbers. Hitler had largely conquered Europe by 1941, so he invaded the USSR at that point. The US didn't set foot on Europe until 1944. So the USSR bore the brunt for three years.

    However, it's wrong to say that the US "basically just appear[ed] after war was nearly over to steal nazi technology". After all, the USSR had been begging for the US and Great Britain to open a second front in Europe for the entire three years. The US had been fighting a fierce war in the Pacific theater for years and could have simply refused to help in Europe; but the US helped out on the Europe front as well, at the end. And opening that second front really did take a lot of pressure off the USSR and helped it considerably. Also, prior to 1944, the US helped the USSR with shipments of arms and supplies to aid their war effort (the Lend-Lease program).

    Also, that brings up another point: You haven't accounted for the Pacific theater of WWII. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941, and the US bore the brunt of that side of the war with exactly zero assistance from the USSR. The Russians finally showed up in the Pacific just in time to make a symbolic appearance just before Japan surrendered. (In accordance with a previous arrangement with the US, the USSR attacked and seized Sakhalin Island from the Japanese just after the bombings at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and a couple days before the official surrender.)

  3. #3
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I was aware of those numbers. Hitler had largely conquered Europe by 1941, so he invaded the USSR at that point. The US didn't set foot on Europe until 1944. So the USSR bore the brunt for three years.

    However, it's a bit wrong to say that the US "basically just appear[ed] after war was nearly over to steal nazi technology". After all, the USSR had been begging for the US and Great Britain to open a second front in Europe for the entire three years. The US had been fighting a fierce war in the Pacific theater for years and could have simply refused to help in Europe; but the US helped out on the Europe front as well, at the end. And opening that second front really did take a lot of pressure off the USSR and helped it considerably.

    Also, that brings up another point: You haven't accounted for the Pacific theater of WWII. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941, and the US bore the brunt of that side of the war with exactly zero assistance from the USSR. The Russians finally showed up in the Pacific just in time to make a symbolic appearance just before Japan surrendered.
    and for about 50 years the us and ussr were in stale mate waiting for one or the other the blow the other up. lesson? i don't know if there is one. but you can help eachother out in war but still want to blow each other up. it's like people. ok say there's 3 people and 2 of them are both threats but if you team up with one person to eliminate one of the threats. because 1 person hates the other person more than you so they get on your side. and that threat is eliminated but then one of you decide the other is a threat and stabs the other in the back (ok i dunno history very well just run with it) therefore war is basically middle school except deadlier and bigger weapons and a lot more is at stake.

    I was also taught that the U.S. is the greatest freeest country on earth with the smartest people ever. I don't believe that at all tbh.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    and for about 50 years the us and ussr were in stale mate waiting for one or the other the blow the other up. lesson? i don't know if there is one. but you can help eachother out in war but still want to blow each other up. it's like people. ok say there's 3 people and 2 of them are both threats but if you team up with one person to eliminate one of the threats. because 1 person hates the other person more than you so they get on your side. and that threat is eliminated but then one of you decide the other is a threat and stabs the other in the back (ok i dunno history very well just run with it) therefore war is basically middle school except deadlier and bigger weapons and a lot more is at stake.
    Absolutely true.

    One other thing that gets forgotten sometimes: The USSR and Germany were allies right up to the day that Hitler invaded Russia. Which means that no one was very keen to come to the USSR's aid: There was a very real fear that the USSR and Germany could flip-flop and become friends again if they decided it was in their interests to work together to screw the Brits and the US.

    In other words, lots of backstabbing was going on.

  5. #5
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Absolutely true.

    One other thing that gets forgotten sometimes: The USSR and Germany were allies right up to the day that Hitler invaded Russia. Which means that no one was very keen to come to the USSR's aid: There was a very real fear that the USSR and Germany could become allies again if they decided it was in their interests to screw the Allies.

    In other words, lots of backstabbing was going on.
    oh i forgot about that part. this is true. I swear I used to know a lot more about ww2 but i've forgotten most of it
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #6
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    in school i was taught that the us was all like ladeedadeedadada minding our own business ladadadada *whistling* all the shit is happening across the ocean we'll send aid. Boom! pearl harbor gets bombed "those motherfuckers!" alright we're in. then they join the war (what I was taught in a nutshell) omfg the US saved the day!!! *waves flags* i don't remember stats though. I think majority of countries are gonna make themselves look good when teaching history.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #7
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Germany began to lose the war after they invaded USSR, I think that much is very clear. That said, US brought in well rested soldiers to battle against enemies who've been in a war for 5(?) years. Fatigue plays a big role in war, as Sun Tzu teaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Germany began to lose the war after they invaded USSR, I think that much is very clear. That said, US brought in well rested soldiers to battle against enemies who've been in a war for 5(?) years. Fatigue plays a big role in war, as Sun Tzu teaches.
    I'll add that the US entry into the European theater wasn't entirely out of a desire to help the USSR. As it became increasingly clear that the USSR was winning against Germany, there was the fear that if the Soviet Union won the European theater single-handedly it would claim all of Europe as spoils of war. As dictators go, Stalin wasn't much of an improvement over Hitler. So there was pressure on the US and Britain to enter the European theater and sweep through a big chunk of Europe if only to keep the western portion out of Russian hands. That way, only the part of Europe roughly east of Berlin ended up behind the Iron Curtain at the end of the war.

  9. #9
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I'll add that the US entry into the European theater wasn't entirely out of a desire to help the USSR. As it became increasingly clear that the USSR was winning against Germany, there was the fear that if the Soviet Union won the European theater single-handedly it would claim all of Europe as spoils of war. As dictators go, Stalin wasn't much of an improvement over Hitler. So there was pressure on the US and Britain to enter the European theater and sweep through a big chunk of Europe if only to keep the western portion out of Russian hands. That way, only the part of Europe roughly east of Berlin ended up behind the Iron Curtain at the end of the war.
    Good call.


  10. #10
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I'll add that the US entry into the European theater wasn't entirely out of a desire to help the USSR. As it became increasingly clear that the USSR was winning against Germany, there was the fear that if the Soviet Union won the European theater single-handedly it would claim all of Europe as spoils of war. As dictators go, Stalin wasn't much of an improvement over Hitler. So there was pressure on the US and Britain to enter the European theater and sweep through a big chunk of Europe if only to keep the western portion out of Russian hands. That way, only the part of Europe roughly east of Berlin ended up behind the Iron Curtain at the end of the war.
    Cornelius Ryan covered some of this in The Last Battle.

    Also, let's not forget about Africa, Italy, and the strategic bombing campaigns.
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