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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Germany and Austria certainly won a little less than Britain and France.
    I was thinking that a look at the Treaty of Versailles might dispel any doubts about who won.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #22
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    a lot of Americans don't realize how early WWII started and how long it went on before the USA did anything.
    Yes, and if Japan had not made the mistake of bombing Pearl Harbour, the USA might have remained isolationist for the whole war.

  3. #23
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I heard that often americans think(and are educated in school) that they had some major influence on winning nazis in ww2 and that USA was some sort of savior in the war against nazis. Which i find rather funny because, well it was soviet union doing most of the work and could even after almost alone beating nazis being able to threaten USA. I mean even one big battles by soviets was much larger than all of the battles in western front combined.

    I mean look at the nazi kills in eastern front(russian border) vs western front(brits, france, usa and their allies together):

    Eastern front:
    Stalingrad: 1.8 million
    Siege of Leningrad: 1.5 million
    Moscow 1941-42: 700,000
    Smolensk 1941: 500,000
    Kiev 1941: 400,000
    Vorenesh 1942: 370,000
    Belarus 1941: 370,000
    2nd Rzhev-Sychevka: 270,000
    Caucasus 1942: 260,000
    Kursk: 230,000
    Lower Dnieper: 170,000
    Kongsberg: 170,000
    Rostov: 150,000
    Budapest: 130,000
    and others with less killed

    Western front:
    Battle of France 180,000
    Normandy: 132,000
    El Alamein: 70,000
    Battle of the Bulge: 38,000

    I m interested on hearing from people who lived in USA if these numbers(or something similar to the numbers) were taught at school or did they actually tell that USA did much more vs nazis than basically just appear after war was nearly over to steal nazi technology? Does this info come to you as a surprise and does it conflict much of what you had learned about USA vs nazi in ww2?
    The U.S. armed the USSR (the U.S. is quite good at this) with thousands of tanks, tens of thousands medium-heavy trucks, hundred of thousands jeeps and about 13k war planes. The irony is the U.S. helped create "the evil empire" as Reagan once termed the USSR. Sound familiar...? Saddam Hussein vs. Iran or Peshawar 7 (succeeded by the Taliban) vs. the USSR?

    One thing my public U.S. education did NOT teach me about WW2 and the Soviets, which flabbergasted me when I learned of it on my own, was the Invasion of Manchuria by the Soviets and the impact it had on forcing the Japanese to the peace table vs. the Nuke only story we are taught.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Senior Member Amalie Muller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Germany began to lose the war after they invaded USSR, I think that much is very clear. That said, US brought in well rested soldiers to battle against enemies who've been in a war for 5(?) years. Fatigue plays a big role in war, as Sun Tzu teaches.
    True. Hitler should have read a Napoleon biography. Silly man. It would have saved him a lot of trouble.

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    The U.S. armed the USSR (the U.S. is quite good at this) with thousands of tanks, tens of thousands medium-heavy trucks, hundred of thousands jeeps and about 13k war planes. The irony is the U.S. helped create "the evil empire" as Reagan once termed the USSR. Sound familiar...? Saddam Hussein vs. Iran or Peshawar 7 (succeeded by the Taliban) vs. the USSR?

    One thing my public U.S. education did NOT teach me about WW2 and the Soviets, which flabbergasted me when I learned of it on my own, was the Invasion of Manchuria by the Soviets and the impact it had on forcing the Japanese to the peace table vs. the Nuke only story we are taught.
    The fact that US(and canada and britts) gave this stuff to USSR so much was new to me, but still it was just a fraction of what USSR had from their own factories.

    You happen to know why USSR was hostile towards US after nazis even tho they gave them this equipment?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  6. #26
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    I note your comment has an American perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    You happen to know why USSR was hostile towards US after nazis even tho they gave them this equipment?
    The Reality:

    "Following the Bolshevik revolution of 1917, the U.S. government was hostile to Soviet Russia. The United States extended its embargo of Germany to include Russia, and orchestrated a series of covert actions against Soviet Russia, including secretly funding its enemies. U.S. Secretary of State Robert Lansing yearned for a military dictatorship for Russia, of the type General Lavr Kornilov attempted to establish in 1917. The United States sent troops to Siberia in 1918 to protect its interests from Cossacks; with the United States landing thousands of troops at Vladivostok and at Arkhangelsk." ~ Soviet Union

    Ideology of course had a big part in all of it as well. The U.S. did not like the Bolsheviks. Additionally the Soviets had just gotten burned by the Nazi's (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and weren't about to be trusting ANYONE. The only remaining "super powers" post WW2 were the Allies and the Soviets.

    "The victory over Nazi Germany was achieved through the economic power of the United States and the lives of millions of Soviets..." ~ Russia's Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II (Book Review)

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    ...but still it was just a fraction of what USSR had from their own factories.
    Here is a link to precise numbers on the equipment that was sent and arrived ~ Lend Lease act tanks and aircrafts for Russia in WW2 1941-45 This is only "war equipment" and doesn't count the 100's of thousands of tons of food, medical supplies, raw materials like sheet metal, motor oil, gasoline, aviation fuel (over a million tons of just fuel, btw) etc., nor all the trucks/jeeps to move the material. That list doesn't include the 580 or so ships that were sent: 202 torpedo boats, 28 patrol boats, 55 minesweepers, 138 submarine hunters, 49 amphibious ships, 3 icebreakers, 80 transport ships and 30 tugs. Interestingly the U.S. did not supply any medium or strategic bombers.

    While the total % of material supplied vs. the Soviets own production varies widely, depending on category. Like small arms, quite modest, only 150k were sent vs. the 20 mil or so that the Soviets made. Here is a link that summarizes the topic well WW2 - Lend-lease. Myth and Reality - Historum - History Forums
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The diplomacy between the Allies during late WWII and shortly after was really tense. It makes an interesting read. Even throughout the war, the USA was often being pulled to different directions by the requests of Britain and the Soviets. The USA often opted to go along with the British, which also helped to inspire distrust and resentment in the Soviets.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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