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  1. #21
    Senior Member Evil Otter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    It's really disappointing that you chose to keep your mind closed on this issue. War is brewing in all parts of the Arab world and will soon occur Ukraine as well (poor things ). So far, 127,125 – 142,200 civilian lives have been taken since the 2003 invasion and 170,000+ Syrian lives since the beginning of the civil war. Don't these lives matter? Or is it because they're muslims that no-one cares?

    The US is not innocent here, ISIS is actually controlled by the CIA and this is not the first time we've seen this.
    Just War Theory - we shouldn't just go marching into another country because they are in a civil war. If innocents are being killed by the regime however, we can be justified in defending them. I would take it a step further and say, "only if they ask for our help", but that's just me. Whose side would you have us fight for in Syria anyways, should we fight with ISIL and Al-qaeda or the dictator? We lose either way; neither of them support our interests or values and they both hate us.

    Ukraine, again who are we supposed to side with? And if we step in on the side of the gov't because that supports our interests why wouldn't Russia step in for the freedom-fighters supporting its interests? Consider the escalation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The US has instigated these problems in the Middle-East. The worst thing this country can do is go fiddle with the region a little bit, then back away, and then come back and fiddle a little bit again later. But this is what the USA has done, and it ultimately enhances the problem rather than combating.

    So perhaps I've made it sound like a bit of an all or nothing situation. If it is, I think it's fairly clear at this point that the USA is simply incapable of taking the all approach. So, I recommend nothing.
    We instigated? how do you figure? It's a blood feud that has been on going for over a thousand years. We didn't start this shit. If anything Mohammed with all his foresight should have known to make it clear who his successor would be and how the line of succession would follow, then they wouldn't have this problem. If you're referring to the Jewish vs Islam thing well that goes back even further. Either way both started before our country existed and will probably outlast it. Our involvement in either one is like throwing a rock in a river, sure it makes a splash but the river will keep flowing the same way it always has until the bank runs dry.

  2. #22
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    We have our planes in the air and Kurdish peshmerga boots on the ground.

    We can actually stop the advance of the Islamic State.

  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky13 View Post
    We instigated? how do you figure? It's a blood feud that has been on going for over a thousand years. We didn't start this shit. If anything Mohammed with all his foresight should have known to make it clear who his successor would be and how the line of succession would follow, then they wouldn't have this problem. If you're referring to the Jewish vs Islam thing well that goes back even further. Either way both started before our country existed and will probably outlast it. Our involvement in either one is like throwing a rock in a river, sure it makes a splash but the river will keep flowing the same way it always has until the bank runs dry.
    I don't feel like retracing the history of US and general western involvement in the middle east, but in the case of this event and the last invasion of Iraq, our actions in Iraq were highly destabilizing.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #24
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky13 View Post

    Ukraine, again who are we supposed to side with? And if we step in on the side of the gov't because that supports our interests why wouldn't Russia step in for the freedom-fighters supporting its interests? Consider the escalation.
    Maybe because there is no" freedom fighters" in Ukraine, but Russian special forces pretending to be freedom fighters?

    Maybe because Russia has become a totalitarian dictatorship once again, with the same kind of propaganda you once witnessed during the Stalin era?

    And first and foremost, maybe because we should respect the will of the vast majority of Ukrainians? They have consciously chosen a Western style democracy, so yes it serves our interests, but it was their choice, not ours...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't feel like retracing the history of US and general western involvement in the middle east, but in the case of this event and the last invasion of Iraq, our actions in Iraq were highly destabilizing.
    severe doubt on the us govt's end stabilization was a true goal

    it is like culling the herd

  6. #26
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    It's extraordinary. We have Australian born muslims in the Islamic State of what was Iraq sending us back pictures of themselves and their children holding up the severed heads of Iraqi soldiers.

    At the same time we have peak Islamic bodies in Australia openly and publicly coming out against our anti-terrorism laws, and refusing to co-operate with the Australian Federal Police (AFP). Anti-semitic attacks are increasing and Jewish schools and synagogues are protected by armed guards.

    It's becoming plain that the terrorist army of the Islamic State (IS) is a militant wing of Islam supported by the majority of muslims in Australia.

    And the Left have made an historic pact with Islam and betray their own people.

  7. #27
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It's extraordinary. We have Australian born muslims in the Islamic State of what was Iraq sending us back pictures of themselves and their children holding up the severed heads of Iraqi soldiers.

    At the same time we have peak Islamic bodies in Australia openly and publicly coming out against our anti-terrorism laws, and refusing to co-operate with the Australian Federal Police (AFP). Anti-semitic attacks are increasing and Jewish schools and synagogues are protected by armed guards.

    It's becoming plain that the terrorist army of the Islamic State (IS) is a militant wing of Islam supported by the majority of muslims in Australia.

    And the Left have made an historic pact with Islam and betray their own people.
    Once again, you seem to be at war with Islam when in fact we're at war with Islamism.

    The paradox is that Islamism is a modern ideology, and the fact that it is absolutely totalitarian in its essence proves it.

    ----

    In France, we have the same issue with Islamists, and with each year it is becoming more and more alarming. One month ago, in the very heart of Paris and for the first time in our history, I witnessed a genuine pogrom attempt, when a large crowd (25 000 protesters & +) yelled "Death to the Jews! Allahou Akbar! Jihad Jihad Jihad!", and then trashed Jewish stores, and tried to burn synagogues (police forces prevented them to reach their goal).
    They were supposed to demonstrate in support of Gaza (theoretically), but in fact, they were demonstrating to express their blatant, horrifying Antisemitism.

    I'm still under the shock because nobody here, in France, could have imagined that. It was simply "unthinkable" that such a large crowd could do that here. And many leftist friends I have still can't imagine this really happened, they simple refuse to believe the medias or even my own testimony.

    But, once again, the facts are more complex than it seems, mainly because Antisemitism transcends political barriers. What I mean is when you carefully look at the people who support Hamas in France, they can be either from the Left or the Right: they're all united in the hatred against Jews. So the Hamas, aside of its own militant Muslims, is allied to both the extreme Left (NPA) and the extreme Right. And unfortunately, the Extreme Right (FN) is becoming more and more influent in France.


    Nonetheless my dear Mole, I still think you should not confuse Muslims with Islamists, exactly the same way you should not confuse France with its own political extreme Right. It doesn't mean we should continue to underestimate it either: they are powerful (25% during the latest elections), they are dangerous, and there is a real danger. Something is really going on and we should fight (how?).
    But most of my Muslim friends are responsible and adamantly oppose Hamas and Islamists. A few years ago, they were almost mute, but now, they are less and less afraid to explain what they really think, despite the possible threats.
    Thus, after this semi-pogrom a month ago, we had "counter-demonstrations" where half of the demonstrators were Muslims explaining that they now refuse to be enemy with Jews, or with anybody.



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  8. #28
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    @Blackmail! I am glad europe/france is finally noticing the elephant in the room.

    But alas the extreme liberals are still managing to find ways to hide their eyes and you have managed to rename the elephant a harmless little monkey.

    Wake up blackmail. Stop looking at yout best friends and hoping for the best. The silent majority will remain silent until (what?) your culture/way-of-life is threatened to suggest acknowledgement of their unhealthy ideologies and adopt secularism or suggest that sharia law should be implemented?
    .

  9. #29
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky13 View Post
    We instigated? how do you figure? It's a blood feud that has been on going for over a thousand years. We didn't start this shit. If anything Mohammed with all his foresight should have known to make it clear who his successor would be and how the line of succession would follow, then they wouldn't have this problem. If you're referring to the Jewish vs Islam thing well that goes back even further. Either way both started before our country existed and will probably outlast it. Our involvement in either one is like throwing a rock in a river, sure it makes a splash but the river will keep flowing the same way it always has until the bank runs dry.
    Magic Poriferan is wrong in blaming only the US for the problems in the Middle East. European colonialism has had an even greater effect than what the US has done. The US is a latecomer to this game. Britain gets far too little criticism for what it has done to destabilize the region because they've taken a back seat to the US since WWII. It is Britain that chose to put Israel in Palestine (a British colony at the time). It is Britain that undermined Iran's constitutional revolution back in 1905. It is Britain that created the Mandate of Mesopotamia after WWI (when the Ottoman Empire was divided up).

    There has always been a disagreement about the succession, but it wasn't always this bloody. This much blood has been spilled because Europeans destabilized the region. Europeans, in their infinite arrogance, divided this land up, installing dictators as they saw fit, without having any clue what the long term consequences would be.

    Stupid racist Brits.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #30
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I blame the big bang.

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