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  1. #11
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The people who act like there are no bad aspects to pot annoy me. Those people are a big reason it's taking so long for this to happen, because they detract from the legitimacy of the movement to eliminate prohibition. But I'm not going to let the opinions of idiots change my viewpoint. There are idiots on both sides of every issue.
    Agreed there entirely.

    These aren't fictional children being harmed. More than 50,000 people have been murdered by Mexican drug cartels near the US border in the last several years, some of those people being Americans.
    I'm not saying they're fictional. I'm saying they're minor in comparison to things like Gaza. Why do I care that 50,000 people are dying when there are thousands of children dying in a single day overseas? I can't care about the whole world all the time. I'd burn out. And at the end of the day.. shitty things are going to happen to good people with potential. So I just don't buy the sympathy stories. I want to see real results. Show me drug cartel activity going down massively in those areas with *all* drugs and not just marijuana, and crime rates stable at least but certainly not rising, and little effect on job markets and education.. and yeah, sure, I'll sign up and be one of those guys. But I wasn't convinced by anyone's theories good or bad.. Not the government's 'omg hitler was invented by cannabis plants in a funny mustache disguise' propaganda, nor the pot heads that think a syringe of marijuana will cure cancer.

    I want to see what Colorado does. I want to see who stays, who moves in, how the businesses run, how the taxes are paid or avoided. I want to see how much people end up going to rehab. Because almost anyone I know that was in rehab for drugs does not want it to be legal--including people that would BENEFIT from legalization via having bad marks removed from their arrest records and such. That, to me, speaks more than whatever theories people have.

    It happens here in the US, too. Look at the turf wars going on in Chicago right now. And have you ever considered the impact drug prohibition has on illegal immigration? It's by no means the only cause, but it is a significant factor in people's decisions to sneak into the US. Central and South American countries have been devastated by our drug war. Cartels are incredibly wealthy and powerful. They have destabilized and corrupted the governments of our neighbors. When the people of these nations can't stand it anymore and come to our doorstep, we spit on them.
    I'd rather take those people in, and get them away from that garbage. Legalizing marijuana here won't make drug cartels go away there. In fact, I fear the worst for those countries with legalization. If they stop selling marijuana significantly.. they'll get creative. They will NOT miss out on their money. They'll push harder drugs, they'll be more cut throat, they'll get aggressive, and they'll attack legal facilities while they're all at it. Hell, we have people attack abortion clinics just because they feel something. Imagine when money is involved. And that's IF we don't have any corruption in the ranks--and there will always be corruption there.


    You sound like Bill O'Reilly, the man who is afraid of "machines".
    Insults aren't necessary. You said I sounded selfish--I'm cool with that. I say you sound idealistic--because I believe you are. But I'm not a fear-monger old guy that shouts at people and bullies them into thinking what I think. I'm allowed to think I'm right--and you're allowed to tell me I'm wrong. I'm not saying marijuana is the devil's juice--but I don't like it, want nothing to do with it, and my experiences have only backed that up throughout my life.

    Drugs were legal for 100,000 years of human history before the temperance movements of the early 20th century managed to make them illegal. Somehow societies managed to not fall apart despite the fact that people used drugs for all of that time.
    I don't know about you, but I don't base my stuff off of history thousands of years ago. History makes great points--but beating women, using children as slave labor, owning slaves, killing people and getting away with it, absolute corruption--they were all ingrained in those histories too, and perfectly legal. I'm looking at today. And today is very very different from 100,000 years ago. Guns weren't a factor for much of that. People didn't have cars they could get behind the wheel of and destroy an entire family without ever meaning to.. People weren't flying a plane with hundreds of passengers on it. It's a different world.. with different rules. It's okay to look back at history and take the good and leave the bad.. but I don't think, in this situation, the two are comparable. Getting fucked up and high was.. essentially not so bad back then, you were sort of on your own. There was no welfare for free money to spend on shit if you used your money for drugs. No hospitals to take you in when you ODed. People weren't spending their money on others back then. There was no saving your ass, you just died if you didn't get food on your own somehow and spent it all on drugs. I don't think I want to see that kind of barbarism come back to us. I don't want that history brought back to our age.

    Drug prohibition, like alcohol prohibition, has been a disastrous social experiment. You should read about what has happened in Portugal, where they have decriminalized all drugs. In Portugal, people like you railed against decriminalization, claiming the sky would fall. Amazingly it didn't.
    I'm not saying the sky will fall. I know for a fact it won't. I'm saying why the fuck do I care if people get high or not if I hate what drugs do and if the sky won't fall either way, and I've seen first hand the damages these drugs cause? Either they're illegal and there's all this shit.. Or they're legal, and there's shit still. I just don't give a shit about if people use drugs or not. I really don't care. I just don't want to be a part of it.

    I've already said it'll end up legal whether I like it or not. And the people who experience marijuana, and other drugs, and quit.. All tell me the same things: They believed it was their gateway drug, that they were dependent, and that they don't want it legal, but decriminalized. I don't believe decriminalization is such a bad process at all. I'd prefer it to legalizing it.

    -Millions of non-violent drug offenders are in prison, costing us billions of dollars every year. The US imprisons more of its own people than any other nation on the planet. So much for the "Land of the Free".
    -The trials of those drug offenders cost us tens, perhaps even hundreds, of millions of dollars every year.
    -Enforcement of drug prohibition costs us somewhere between 50 and 100 billion dollars every year.
    All would be relieved massively with decriminalization as well, and without the widespread sweeping changes of legalization. Decriminalization would make the states massive amounts of money too--the same way those stupid red light cameras do.

    -Drug enforcement has lead to the militarization of our police forces. Police have adopted the attitude of shoot first, ask questions later. They now treat Americans like we're all criminals, like they're an occupying force.
    Having worked as a cop, and closely with cops.. and being the world's worst cop ever. I have to say, it doesn't help that they attract ex-military in the first place. But this seems to be an issue with more than just drugs.. the militarization thing is a totally different topic, and has been caused by more than just drug usage.

    -Corruption of our own police is widespread. Drug money is just too easy to take given how little police officers are paid. Google "Philadelphia arrests police drugs" for an example.
    It's everywhere. In every job. Corruption will infiltrate, massively, places of drug distribution as well. They won't be immune to it. And Marijuana is just one drug. Like I said, I'm looking at realities.. No one in America will ever say, "Yeah, lets make every single drug legal ever." I don't think I will see that in my lifetime even if you had God himself coming down and blessing people with the knowledge. So.. That won't go away with legalization. Same with the militarization.

    -The police spend less time policing real crimes (murder, rape, etc) because those crimes don't bring revenue into the department like drug seizures do.
    Not every officer is equipped to solve things like that. Do it wrong, and you'll end up hurting the case more than helping it. Yeah, the people who do that stuff are over worked.. just like any field with something that ACTUALLY helps out society. But the people who are there are there because they want to be. I don't think we'll see that change too much.

    -The quick, easy money of drug dealing entices many young males (who aren't capable of properly assessing risk and long-term consequences as most adults can) into a criminal lifestyle rather than prioritizing education, helping to fuel the cycle of poverty in inner cities across the US.
    More than just drugs entice young men to not focus on education. I think we'd do more good working directly in communities that need help with this sort of thing--but that involves people caring, getting off their asses, and doing it. It's easy to say, "Oh, that'll get fixed more if I vote for this." Because then you don't have to get up and go do it yourself. I don't see young people stopping doing risky behavior ever.. but I do see more good in reforming education and putting charter schools into areas that need help than I think I'd see from marijuana being more available. It isn't like the kids would be able to buy it anyways--they'd have to be a certain age.. so it'd still be risky behavior involving selling drugs.

    -Blacks are nearly 10 times more likely to be arrested and imprisoned than whites for identical drug crimes, further fueling the cycle of poverty in inner cities across the US.
    Again, I think reforms have better long term affects. Stop arresting blacks for drugs, they'll pick on blacks for something else. Racism isn't going away entirely.. I'm sad to say. I don't see marijuana doing anything more than a temporary band-aid for this.

    -Drug addicts are unlikely to seek treatment because of the legal implications. Believe it or not, there are many functional drug addicts. And they don't want to risk losing their jobs, so they don't seek treatment.
    They don't seek treatment for many reasons. This is definitely one of them. But even legal drugs--like alcohol... They don't want to lose their jobs, so they don't tell anyone they have a problem. I don't see marijuana changing this status quo in the favor of treatment centers. Not by much. If people are ready for treatment, they will go and get treated. They'll make every excuse in the book before then.

    At the AA meeting I last attended.. The guy said, "My whole family told me. They tried to help me. No one got to me. I was watching Click.. a stupid Adam Sandler movie.. and .. that's when I realized I was an alcoholic. I saw him trying to press stop and play.. and the remote auto-fast-forwarded on his whole life. And I related to it so much I broke down and cried right there." It doesn't matter how many people care about them.. They'll do what they do until something presses them to change. It's an individual thing. Legal or not, people seek help when they're ready.

    -There is no quality control, whatsoever. The poor quality of drugs leads to many overdoses.
    Completely agreed. But I think the pill form has more control over the quality and distribution. It's easier and more effective. I'm not against people using marijuana.. especially if they need it.. but the pills are better between the two. It's easier to get a sense of how much someone has had. Just because you cannot OD on marijuana doesn't mean it won't cause permanent damage with prolonged and extended use.

    -IV drug use leads to the spread of HIV. This is something that can actually be fixed pretty easily, but that won't happen as long as we treat drug addicts like they're international terrorists.
    Legalizing drugs, even in hypothetical all-legal-ever-wonderland, will still lead to sharing needles. People that use drugs don't get it.. they don't think about the long term affects of their actions. They don't care if someone hasn't been tested for STDs. They want a hit, and that person has it.

    -Drug cartels are so wealthy that some drug kingpins have made Forbes' list of the wealthiest people in the world. There will always be criminals, but drug prohibition gives violent criminals a way to make unimaginable amounts of money, increasing their influence on society to dangerous levels.
    Which is still going to happen because no one in their right mind now-a-days is going to say, "Sure, let's make heroin legal." So, again, I'm not concerned about drug cartels. They exist and they aren't going away anytime soon.

    But in your mind those are completely outweighed by the idea that the you'll be "mugged constantly" if drugs are legalized.
    Yeah. They are. Because they will. Like I said. I'm living Right now. And right now, in my life time, I will be simply speechless if drug cartels are dismantled because of legalization of all drugs. It just isn't happening. It won't happen. So.. With THAT in mind. Yeah, decriminalization will lead to a lot less ramifications in my head without just condoning straight-out drug use for recreational purposes. I just don't think it's a bad thing to look at something not only useless and unproductive, but actually bad for someone, and saying you don't want anything to do with that. I just don't.

    Legalization will eventually happen--I agreed with that from the beginning. It will happen..

    The arguments against legalization are pretty much always based on fantastical scare tactics, like the idea that you'll be "mugged constantly".
    Now you're just being a grammar nazi. I don't know if you noticed.. but I speak in a fantastical way about pretty much everything. I say I am dying when I have a cold. I say I'll be mugged constantly when I mean "the crime rates on petty crimes will rise 60-96% according to these statistics of actual reported petty crimes in the last year." Let's be a little reasonable here...

    But my arguments are not scare tactics. They are real. Drug cartels WILL find a way to replace those funds they lose with massive legal marijuana--and that's IF they lose those funds. I don't see cartels getting less powerful with marijuana being legal. I see them getting more pissed off. If I've learned anything from shitty people it's that when they want something, they'll find a way to get it. I see more benefits from decriminalization than I do from legalization. That isn't a scare tactic out of legalization.. that's based on real shit in the world today. Your idea, to me, only works if they're all legal RIGHT now AND have the support of the people using the drugs. And since I think that it won't work.. I think more would get done immediately with decriminalization.

    It's rare to see an argument against legalization that doesn't eventually devolve into fear. It's always fear tactics. It's the same tactics conservatives use to fight against gay marriage. Fear. Fear. Fear. Fear. Fear. You must be afraid!
    Because drugs are a scary thing. It isn't like gay marriage where there's nothing stemming from it--I get the fear here. I've seen it. I've seen children born fucked up because mothers could not quit cocaine addictions pregnant. I've seen people killed because people under the influence couldn't decide to not drive. I don't know if you've ever worked with people recovering from drugs.. but if you have.. I don't know how you're still SO pro-drug without any reservations. Gay marriage is a completely different issue.. I get what you're saying, I don't like the mindless fear-mongering either. But there is a real fear with drugs. They make people make not-so-great decisions.

    Like that lady that destroyed a couple's house, didn't know them was just on a meth binge, and was hiding under their bed scraping the mattress with a butcher's knife. That isn't that odd of a situation.. People get on drugs, and jump into traffic (how many of the people who ended up at my Psych ward got there), start beating on people's doors at all hours of the night, steal shit, mug people.. there's a lot of bad decisions made on drugs. It's understandable to be scared of them. No one who uses drugs has proven people wrong really. The people who use drugs, stop using them, never were addicted.. those people may not be in the minority, but they aren't the ones people are scared of either. It only takes one guy upset and wanting crack to end my life. Whether the crack is legal or not.. money still needs to be there. And money is still the primary reason drug addicts turn to violence and crime. Drugs are expensive habits that require money.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm not saying they're fictional. I'm saying they're minor in comparison to things like Gaza. Why do I care that 50,000 people are dying when there are thousands of children dying in a single day overseas? I can't care about the whole world all the time. I'd burn out. And at the end of the day.. shitty things are going to happen to good people with potential. So I just don't buy the sympathy stories. I want to see real results. Show me drug cartel activity going down massively in those areas with *all* drugs and not just marijuana, and crime rates stable at least but certainly not rising, and little effect on job markets and education.. and yeah, sure, I'll sign up and be one of those guys. But I wasn't convinced by anyone's theories good or bad.. Not the government's 'omg hitler was invented by cannabis plants in a funny mustache disguise' propaganda, nor the pot heads that think a syringe of marijuana will cure cancer.
    So you're saying that because there are children dying in Gaza, we shouldn't do anything about any other problems until we solve that one first. On a side note, I wouldn't call the effects of drug prohibition minor compared to Gaza. We're just used to them. We see them as "normal". They don't shock us anymore. You would consider them to "just be part of life".

    I'd rather take those people in, and get them away from that garbage. Legalizing marijuana here won't make drug cartels go away there. In fact, I fear the worst for those countries with legalization. If they stop selling marijuana significantly.. they'll get creative. They will NOT miss out on their money. They'll push harder drugs, they'll be more cut throat, they'll get aggressive, and they'll attack legal facilities while they're all at it. Hell, we have people attack abortion clinics just because they feel something. Imagine when money is involved. And that's IF we don't have any corruption in the ranks--and there will always be corruption there.
    You're right, legalizing marijuana won't eliminate the cartels. It will hit them in the pocketbook, though. They might even get more violent, temporarily, in an attempt to maintain their income, but that will be a fruitless endeavour. No one can escape the law of supply and demand, not even drug cartels. If people are buying their marijuana from large corporations in the US, there is nothing drug cartels can do about that (unless they're willing to wage war on the US military, which would fail miserably).


    I don't know about you, but I don't base my stuff off of history thousands of years ago. History makes great points--but beating women, using children as slave labor, owning slaves, killing people and getting away with it, absolute corruption--they were all ingrained in those histories too, and perfectly legal. I'm looking at today. And today is very very different from 100,000 years ago. Guns weren't a factor for much of that. People didn't have cars they could get behind the wheel of and destroy an entire family without ever meaning to.. People weren't flying a plane with hundreds of passengers on it. It's a different world.. with different rules. It's okay to look back at history and take the good and leave the bad.. but I don't think, in this situation, the two are comparable. Getting fucked up and high was.. essentially not so bad back then, you were sort of on your own. There was no welfare for free money to spend on shit if you used your money for drugs. No hospitals to take you in when you ODed. People weren't spending their money on others back then. There was no saving your ass, you just died if you didn't get food on your own somehow and spent it all on drugs. I don't think I want to see that kind of barbarism come back to us. I don't want that history brought back to our age.
    The most popular drug of all time being legal, alcohol, refutes your argument here.

    Also I want to be clear about something here. You seem to be operating under the assumption that legalizing drugs will result in more people using. That hasn't been shown to be the case. Portugal's drug usage rates have barely changed. Some drugs are being used a little more, but some drugs are being used less. There is no evidence in existence to back up the assertion that legalization will result in wholesale increased drug use. There exists only the paranoid rants of fearmongers on that front.

    Having worked as a cop, and closely with cops.. and being the world's worst cop ever. I have to say, it doesn't help that they attract ex-military in the first place. But this seems to be an issue with more than just drugs.. the militarization thing is a totally different topic, and has been caused by more than just drug usage.
    There might be other peripheral issues that contribute to the militarization of police, but the drug war is the driving force behind it. Drug seizures are why police departments can even afford the equipment.

    It's everywhere. In every job. Corruption will infiltrate, massively, places of drug distribution as well. They won't be immune to it. And Marijuana is just one drug. Like I said, I'm looking at realities.. No one in America will ever say, "Yeah, lets make every single drug legal ever." I don't think I will see that in my lifetime even if you had God himself coming down and blessing people with the knowledge. So.. That won't go away with legalization. Same with the militarization.
    So we should just throw our hands in the air and give up on fighting corruption? That's a consistent theme in your posts on this issue. "Why should we ever try to improve anything? Everything is always going to be shitty." I don't share that fatalistic outlook. We've made remarkable cultural strides over the last century. One of the areas we need to improve now is with corruption. Ending drug prohibition would remove one massive temptation from police officers who consider straying from the moral path.

    Not every officer is equipped to solve things like that. Do it wrong, and you'll end up hurting the case more than helping it. Yeah, the people who do that stuff are over worked.. just like any field with something that ACTUALLY helps out society. But the people who are there are there because they want to be. I don't think we'll see that change too much.
    This has less to do with the decisions of individual officers and more to do with administrative decisions on where to deploy resources. The "brass" know what pays the bills and it's not investigating real crime. It's drug seizures.

    More than just drugs entice young men to not focus on education. I think we'd do more good working directly in communities that need help with this sort of thing--but that involves people caring, getting off their asses, and doing it. It's easy to say, "Oh, that'll get fixed more if I vote for this." Because then you don't have to get up and go do it yourself. I don't see young people stopping doing risky behavior ever.. but I do see more good in reforming education and putting charter schools into areas that need help than I think I'd see from marijuana being more available. It isn't like the kids would be able to buy it anyways--they'd have to be a certain age.. so it'd still be risky behavior involving selling drugs.
    Sure, it's not the only thing that entices young males to not focus on education, but it is major factor in many communities. Selling drugs is the easiest way make big money in poor communities and these young males don't consider the long term consequences. They're kids.

    Again, I think reforms have better long term affects. Stop arresting blacks for drugs, they'll pick on blacks for something else. Racism isn't going away entirely.. I'm sad to say. I don't see marijuana doing anything more than a temporary band-aid for this.
    What reforms? Also, if you make it so police officers can't arrest people for drug possession, fewer black people are going to be arrested. A certain percentage of those people might still get arrested for something else, but not everyone will. I'm pretty sure those black people who would be spared arrest would be glad they're not being arrested, but I could be wrong.

    They don't seek treatment for many reasons. This is definitely one of them. But even legal drugs--like alcohol... They don't want to lose their jobs, so they don't tell anyone they have a problem. I don't see marijuana changing this status quo in the favor of treatment centers. Not by much. If people are ready for treatment, they will go and get treated. They'll make every excuse in the book before then.

    At the AA meeting I last attended.. The guy said, "My whole family told me. They tried to help me. No one got to me. I was watching Click.. a stupid Adam Sandler movie.. and .. that's when I realized I was an alcoholic. I saw him trying to press stop and play.. and the remote auto-fast-forwarded on his whole life. And I related to it so much I broke down and cried right there." It doesn't matter how many people care about them.. They'll do what they do until something presses them to change. It's an individual thing. Legal or not, people seek help when they're ready
    This is another "everything is always going to be shitty, so why try?" argument.

    Completely agreed. But I think the pill form has more control over the quality and distribution. It's easier and more effective. I'm not against people using marijuana.. especially if they need it.. but the pills are better between the two. It's easier to get a sense of how much someone has had. Just because you cannot OD on marijuana doesn't mean it won't cause permanent damage with prolonged and extended use.
    I'm not just talking about marijuana. I'm talking about all drugs.

    Legalizing drugs, even in hypothetical all-legal-ever-wonderland, will still lead to sharing needles. People that use drugs don't get it.. they don't think about the long term affects of their actions. They don't care if someone hasn't been tested for STDs. They want a hit, and that person has it.
    You can reduce the percentage of people who share needles. It has happened in the real world. One of the biggest effects of Portugal's decriminalization is a reduction in the spread of HIV. We're not going to eliminate sharing needles completely, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

    Which is still going to happen because no one in their right mind now-a-days is going to say, "Sure, let's make heroin legal." So, again, I'm not concerned about drug cartels. They exist and they aren't going away anytime soon.
    There are lots of people in their right mind who say "Sure, let's make heroin legal", many of them former cops.

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    Yeah. They are. Because they will. Like I said. I'm living Right now. And right now, in my life time, I will be simply speechless if drug cartels are dismantled because of legalization of all drugs. It just isn't happening. It won't happen. So.. With THAT in mind. Yeah, decriminalization will lead to a lot less ramifications in my head without just condoning straight-out drug use for recreational purposes. I just don't think it's a bad thing to look at something not only useless and unproductive, but actually bad for someone, and saying you don't want anything to do with that. I just don't.
    You might be speechless when you hear this, but...when alcohol prohibition was repealed, bootleggers went out of business. (or they became legitimate and stopped killing people). Violence decreased. That is an indisputable fact. Some of those criminals found other ways to make money (gambling, prostitution, other drugs), but many of them became law-abiding citizens again. One thing I've always found interesting is that 20th century-style organized crime didn't exist before alcohol and drug prohibition. There have always been criminal gangs (including drug cartels in that group), but their power and influence was nothing like it is today. Black markets are the source of their power.

    But my arguments are not scare tactics. They are real. Drug cartels WILL find a way to replace those funds they lose with massive legal marijuana--and that's IF they lose those funds. I don't see cartels getting less powerful with marijuana being legal. I see them getting more pissed off. If I've learned anything from shitty people it's that when they want something, they'll find a way to get it. I see more benefits from decriminalization than I do from legalization. That isn't a scare tactic out of legalization.. that's based on real shit in the world today. Your idea, to me, only works if they're all legal RIGHT now AND have the support of the people using the drugs. And since I think that it won't work.. I think more would get done immediately with decriminalization.
    You have remarkable confidence in drug cartels to generate income, but you're forgetting something very important. They're subject to the same economic realities as every other business on the planet. One of those realities is supply and demand. They might temporarily be able to steal money from other people, but that's not as lucrative as selling drugs unless you are a Wall Street bank. Are you implying that drug cartels are going to get involved in international finance? That's that only way I can imagine your claim that "drug cartels will find a way to replace those funds they lose" actually becoming true.

    Because drugs are a scary thing. It isn't like gay marriage where there's nothing stemming from it--I get the fear here. I've seen it. I've seen children born fucked up because mothers could not quit cocaine addictions pregnant. I've seen people killed because people under the influence couldn't decide to not drive. I don't know if you've ever worked with people recovering from drugs.. but if you have.. I don't know how you're still SO pro-drug without any reservations. Gay marriage is a completely different issue.. I get what you're saying, I don't like the mindless fear-mongering either. But there is a real fear with drugs. They make people make not-so-great decisions.
    Gay marriage is a scary thing to conservatives. They believe that if it is legalized, that homosexuality will become more normalized and lots of people will turn gay. Similarly, you believe that if drugs are legalized, drug use and crime will increase significantly. Neither of those claims have a shred of evidence to back them up.

    Like that lady that destroyed a couple's house, didn't know them was just on a meth binge, and was hiding under their bed scraping the mattress with a butcher's knife. That isn't that odd of a situation.. People get on drugs, and jump into traffic (how many of the people who ended up at my Psych ward got there), start beating on people's doors at all hours of the night, steal shit, mug people.. there's a lot of bad decisions made on drugs. It's understandable to be scared of them. No one who uses drugs has proven people wrong really. The people who use drugs, stop using them, never were addicted.. those people may not be in the minority, but they aren't the ones people are scared of either. It only takes one guy upset and wanting crack to end my life. Whether the crack is legal or not.. money still needs to be there. And money is still the primary reason drug addicts turn to violence and crime. Drugs are expensive habits that require money.
    All of those things happen with drugs being illegal. Your argument only makes sense if you believe that drug use and crime are going to skyrocket if drug prohibition is ended.
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  3. #13
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you're saying that because there are children dying in Gaza, we shouldn't do anything about any other problems until we solve that one first. On a side note, I wouldn't call the effects of drug prohibition minor compared to Gaza. We're just used to them. We see them as "normal". They don't shock us anymore. You would consider them to "just be part of life".
    Probably. They do seem normal to me--just like Gaza seems pretty normal to me. All I hear is "people blow each other up in middle east again". I'm pretty numb to all of it. I just don't care that much. I'm not saying do nothing.. I'm not a fan of that approach. I'm just saying telling me kids are dying isn't really going to change my mind. I don't think legalizing marijuana will get rid of the cartels, or be such a blow to the point that they fall apart.. and that means no affect on the kids and their living situation. Thus, I don't care nor do I find it a valid point.

    You're right, legalizing marijuana won't eliminate the cartels. It will hit them in the pocketbook, though. They might even get more violent, temporarily, in an attempt to maintain their income, but that will be a fruitless endeavour. No one can escape the law of supply and demand, not even drug cartels. If people are buying their marijuana from large corporations in the US, there is nothing drug cartels can do about that (unless they're willing to wage war on the US military, which would fail miserably).
    If. That's a big if. I'm suspecting they'll find a way to survive that blow to their pocketbooks.. and they'll be more aggressive about the things they do find.

    The most popular drug of all time being legal, alcohol, refutes your argument here.
    My point being it isn't a supporting argument for anything. Saying someone did something back in the day without trouble doesn't work with me. I can say, "But beating my wife was totally cool 1000 years ago! They even allow it still today in some countries! And they seem fine!" I didn't live 1000 years ago. I don't live in other countries. The dynamics are different. Especially pertaining to public health and safety. It's a different world.

    Also I want to be clear about something here. You seem to be operating under the assumption that legalizing drugs will result in more people using. That hasn't been shown to be the case. Portugal's drug usage rates have barely changed. Some drugs are being used a little more, but some drugs are being used less. There is no evidence in existence to back up the assertion that legalization will result in wholesale increased drug use. There exists only the paranoid rants of fearmongers on that front.
    I don't believe more people, overall, statistically will use. That isn't my point. I believe those prone to addiction will have an easier time accessing that addiction. The hardest part about alcoholics trying to quit is how ABUNDANT alcohol is. It's everywhere. Anywhere you go. I think it's fairly safe to say that. But I don't see how my saying "history isn't an example of why it's okay to do drugs" equates to me thinking that people are going to use significantly more.

    There might be other peripheral issues that contribute to the militarization of police, but the drug war is the driving force behind it. Drug seizures are why police departments can even afford the equipment.
    Which, again, won't go away with legalizing marijuana. It'll just free them up to focus on other harder drugs.

    That's a consistent theme in your posts on this issue. "Why should we ever try to improve anything?[/quote]

    Because you're looking at it from the standpoint that the quality of life in America will increase overall with the legalization of marijuana. And I just don't think that's really true. I don't think it will sway the quality of life one way or the other. You won't eliminate cartels, you won't decrease crime (apparently), it's already available medically to people who need it. So, to me, this just sounds like a big stink of pot heads wanting to do something that really isn't that important in life and crying about it. And they have a right to do that.. Of course they do.. I have stupid stuff I want all the time. But that doesn't mean I believe that they're IMPROVING life in America as a result. I don't think that's the case. Sorry, but I don't. I don't think legalizing marijuana is progress. If anything, it's a neutral thing, and I don't really think choosing between apple colors is something I want to focus on.. particularly if I don't like apples.

    Sure, it's not the only thing that entices young males to not focus on education, but it is major factor in many communities. Selling drugs is the easiest way make big money in poor communities and these young males don't consider the long term consequences. They're kids.
    And selling drugs will continue to make them money because children won't have access to marijuana legally. So I don't see your point here.

    What reforms? Also, if you make it so police officers can't arrest people for drug possession, fewer black people are going to be arrested. A certain percentage of those people might still get arrested for something else, but not everyone will. I'm pretty sure those black people who would be spared arrest would be glad they're not being arrested, but I could be wrong.
    If you have to ask what reforms, then I'm already pointing out the problem. The problem isn't marijuana--it's the racism card in this argument. If it's decriminalized fewer black people are arrested. So why push for legalization? The marijuana charges are symptoms of something bigger. So I'm not buying that marijuana will help blacks not look like criminals to whites. That's ingrained into mentalities that marijuana can't reach.

    I'm not just talking about marijuana. I'm talking about all drugs.
    and I've already emphasized that I am not. Because we're not. The OP is talking about marijuana. The subject in courts and states right now is marijuana. And the reality is all drugs are NOT legal nor will they be anywhere within our childrens' lifetimes. I'd like to stick to what makes sense right now. Like I said.. I think your idea of all drugs is too idealistic, and many of your arguments for marijuana legalization fall apart without the idealistic component.

    You might be speechless when you hear this, but...when alcohol prohibition was repealed, bootleggers went out of business. (or they became legitimate and stopped killing people). Violence decreased. That is an indisputable fact.
    You have remarkable confidence in drug cartels to generate income, but you're forgetting something very important. They're subject to the same economic realities as every other business on the planet. One of those realities is supply and demand. They might temporarily be able to steal money from other people, but that's not as lucrative as selling drugs unless you are a Wall Street bank. Are you implying that drug cartels are going to get involved in international finance? That's that only way I can imagine your claim that "drug cartels will find a way to replace those funds they lose" actually becoming true.
    You're also imagining your future where all drugs are legal. I'm imagining it from the standpoint of what will happen within the next 2-4 generations. Which are vastly different. I have a lot of confidence in cartels because they've given me every reason to think that. It's why people are so desperate to take them down--because they know how vast the empire stretches. They're already so far into power that dismantling them is going to be a lot harder than giving people pot.

    Gay marriage is a scary thing to conservatives. They believe that if it is legalized, that homosexuality will become more normalized and lots of people will turn gay. Similarly, you believe that if drugs are legalized, drug use and crime will increase significantly. Neither of those claims have a shred of evidence to back them up.
    I believe drug access will go up significantly. And I don't buy the fact that crime will somehow decrease with legalization vs decriminalization. I have never once said the use will go up. In fact, we've already had this conversation in another thread where I'm pretty sure I've clarified my stance time and time again. You see me as a conservative drug-hating-fearing paranoid sissy that can't think outside the box. And your replies each and every time confirm that. If that's what you want me to be.. Then nothing I say is going to change that. I think decriminalization is sufficient. You clearly don't. That's pretty much cool with me. You're getting your way either way dude. Legalization is going to happen eventually. So I don't see what you're so twisted up about when you're talking to me.

    All of those things happen with drugs being illegal. Your argument only makes sense if you believe that drug use and crime are going to skyrocket if drug prohibition is ended.
    It isn't about if they'll happen more often or not. It's about condoning if they happen at all. If drugs are used at all. There's just a human aspect to it.... Recreational drug use doesn't really progress society. That isn't the reason why they should be legal or illegal or whatever... But. It's hard for me to see what drugs do to people.. and then say I'm totally cool with them having more access to them. And having my family's children grow up with free access to them.

    I'm saying there are clear, distinct reasons people are afraid of drugs. Telling me, "But they're illegal!!" isn't going to take away the fear--because the reason why they're afraid is linked directly to the drugs themselves. That's all I'm saying. Is that you have to understand that there is a REAL, Viable fear of drugs that people witness Because of and pertaining entirely to drugs. People SEE drugs destroying people and families. It isn't like someone's going bananas and blaming the drugs, like the instance of gay marriage. The drugs ARE the problem. It's a very different situation. It has nothing to do with how little you *think* it happens. The reality is it happens enough for people to see it for themselves all the time.
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