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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    If there wasn't before, there are now....and "Arab residents of the British Mandate of Palestine" is too unwieldy.
    Then just say "Syrians."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Well, if the Times of Israel reported it, it must be legit, and not just Israeli (sympathisers') allegations.

    Now, yes, the brainwashed children usually wait until after they're legal adults to participate, that's just not a distinction I felt like making on an off-the-cuff comment, especially as I see only a little moral difference between brainwashing children from early childhood to become a suicide bomber at a young age and sending them off while they're only a few years younger.
    Tell me, how many suicide bombings have there been in Israel, in 2010? 2011? 2012? 2013? 2014? And how many of them were teenagers? And how many were claimed by Hamas?

    I'm just trying to understand what you meant by, "routinely".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    "Palestinians" are Arabs who defiantly planted themselves on that soil after the Israeli state was created in 1949. As far as body counts and whatever are concerned: so what, if the Palestinians don't like it they can just move back to where they came from.
    You make it seem like the Israeli state was "created" on empty land, with no occupants. And then you use that ridiculous assertion to justify why Palentinians should "move back to where they came from". Tell me, does recalling history with a skewed lens serve your purpose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Hamas uses children as human shields. Israeli warns Hamas to vacate the civilian "shields." Hamas refuses to do so. Children die. Pictures and videos of Israeli atrocities are posted to the internet.
    Propaganda. Another one drinking Netanyahu's kool-aid. The reason this took steam is because Netanyahu first made this comment to justify his killing of Palestinian civilians, including children. They made us do it, they were using children as shields, so we had to fire in that area. We warn them, to evacuate (in one of most dense areas where there's no where to really GO), with less than minutes of warning. See? We are fair. Not our fault, that we are forced to kill them, they force us to kill them.

    When an abuser turns to the abused and says, "You made me do it, because........"

    I have no love for Hamas. There's more than enough to lodge against them, without inventing things. But, really, scapegoating is just reeking of bias.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Well, if the Times of Israel reported it, it must be legit, and not just Israeli (sympathisers') allegations.



    Tell me, how many suicide bombings have there been in Israel, in 2010? 2011? 2012? 2013? 2014? And how many of them were teenagers? And how many were claimed by Hamas?

    I'm just trying to understand what you meant by, "routinely".



    You make it seem like the Israeli state was "created" on empty land, with no occupants. And then you use that ridiculous assertion to justify why Palentinians should "move back to where they came from". Tell me, does recalling history with a skewed lens serve your purpose?



    Propaganda. Another one drinking Netanyahu's kool-aid. The reason this took steam is because Netanyahu first made this comment to justify his killing of Palestinian civilians, including children. They made us do it, they were using children as shields, so we had to fire in that area. We warn them, to evacuate (in one of most dense areas where there's no where to really GO), with less than minutes of warning. See? We are fair. Not our fault, that we are forced to kill them, they force us to kill them.

    When an abuser turns to the abused and says, "You made me do it, because........"

    I have no love for Hamas. There's more than enough to lodge against them, without inventing things. But, really, scapegoating is just reeking of bias.
    Yes, if you consider the way Palestine was in the late 19th century - a deserted area where you could roam for miles without seeing another human being.

    In the early 20th century the area was being developed by some Jewish settlers.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Well, if the Times of Israel reported it, it must be legit, and not just Israeli (sympathisers') allegations.

    Tell me, how many suicide bombings have there been in Israel, in 2010? 2011? 2012? 2013? 2014? And how many of them were teenagers? And how many were claimed by Hamas?
    Its founder seems to be an internationally respected journalist, and every source has some significant bias on this issue.

    Yeah, those barrier fences worked......before that, suicide attacks were endemic (as in 'routine'-238 in 2002): List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Nowadays, they tend to send missiles instead.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Yes, if you consider the way Palestine was in the late 19th century - a deserted area where you could roam for miles without seeing another human being.

    In the early 20th century the area was being developed by some Jewish settlers.
    British Empire declares war on the Ottoman Empire, and in favour of setting up a Zionist/Jewish state

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Its founder seems to be an internationally respected journalist, and every source has some significant bias on this issue.


    Yeah, those barrier fences worked......before that, suicide attacks were endemic (as in 'routine'-238 in 2002): List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    You think the setting up of the West Bank barrier was a security measure? Let me guess, this is what Israeli media, with highly respected, esteemed journalists, quoted their leaders as the reason for the wall, right? As noble as that spin on the tale is, it was a guise, as it was as much a political barrier, as anything else. Otherwise, it wouldn't have extended as far/and where it did. Geopolitical motivation, at its ugliest.

    Nowadays, they tend to send missiles instead.
    Don't forget the donkeys!

  6. #36
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post



    You think the setting up of the West Bank barrier was a security measure? Let me guess, this is what Israeli media, with highly respected, esteemed journalists, quoted their leaders as the reason for the wall, right? As noble as that spin on the tale is, it was a guise, as it was as much a political barrier, as anything else. Otherwise, it wouldn't have extended as far/and where it did. Geopolitical motivation, at its ugliest.

    Don't forget the donkeys!
    Do you disagree with the assertion itself, or the apparent international respect for his professionalism and qualifications?

    The barrier fence is both, and from a security standpoint its hard to argue with the results. The fence itself roughly corresponds to the Taba proposals, and as such is an obvious territorial claim on about 6% of the West Bank as well, most of which contain high-population Jewish settlements near the 1967 borders, much of that understood by both parties as an obvious part of a future territorial exchange. Frankly, I consider that much less of a geo-political or humanitarian crime than hundreds of suicide bombings against civilian targets, and less of an impediment to a permanent peace agreement than enthusiastic terrorism against civilian targets or indoctrinating children to view any agreement as a temporary measure in a Manichean pursuit of Israel's dissolution (with very recent regional history as a telling example of how a proposed Jewish minority in a one-state solution would fare).

    How could I? They are apparently aimed toward actual military targets.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Do you disagree with the assertion itself, or the apparent international respect for his professionalism and qualifications?

    The barrier fence is both, and from a security standpoint its hard to argue with the results. The fence itself roughly corresponds to the Taba proposals, and as such is an obvious territorial claim on about 6% of the West Bank as well, most of which contain high-population Jewish settlements near the 1967 borders, much of that understood by both parties as an obvious part of a future territorial exchange. Frankly, I consider that much less of a geo-political or humanitarian crime than hundreds of suicide bombings against civilian targets, and less of an impediment to a permanent peace agreement than enthusiastic terrorism against civilian targets or indoctrinating children to view any agreement as a temporary measure in a Manichean pursuit of Israel's dissolution (with very recent regional history as a telling example of how a proposed Jewish minority in a one-state solution would fare).

    How could I? They are apparently aimed toward actual military targets.
    There are two fences keeping in the "Palestinian" people.

    The first one everybody knows about. It prevents the "Palestinian" people from immigrating to Israel which could potentially reduce the Israeli Jews to minority status in their own country.

    The second one is lesser known: it consists of an economic barrier. There are economic opportunities in the surrounding Arab nations. But the "Palestinian" people are denied access to these opportunities. The existence of the so-called "Palestinian" people is important to the Arab cause as a political strategy, the end of which is the elimination of Israel as a nation-state.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #38
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Do you disagree with the assertion itself, or the apparent international respect for his professionalism and qualifications?
    I disagree with the source, to give a measured, unbiased account of what is really happening, that is not aligned with their apparent agenda.

    The barrier fence is both, and from a security standpoint its hard to argue with the results. The fence itself roughly corresponds to the Taba proposals, and as such is an obvious territorial claim on about 6% of the West Bank as well, most of which contain high-population Jewish settlements near the 1967 borders, much of that understood by both parties as an obvious part of a future territorial exchange. Frankly, I consider that much less of a geo-political or humanitarian crime than hundreds of suicide bombings against civilian targets, and less of an impediment to a permanent peace agreement than enthusiastic terrorism against civilian targets or indoctrinating children to view any agreement as a temporary measure in a Manichean pursuit of Israel's dissolution (with very recent regional history as a telling example of how a proposed Jewish minority in a one-state solution would fare).

    How could I? They are apparently aimed toward actual military targets.
    You seem to minimize and dismiss wrong-doings from Israel's side by justifying that they're not as bad, as the other side. A wrong is a wrong. It is not dependent on another's wrongdoing. That's apologist mentality.

    The bolded is your interpretation of the news that aligns with your viewpoints, and much less, an impartial account of the reality of the situation.

    Lowtech and @Mal12345 - it's quite astounding how you both view this in such black and white terms. One side is in the right, they're uniformly good. Israel. The other side is bad, they're uniformly bad. There's no room for nuances or reviewing of history through any other lens but the ones you've set up.

    When the newly created state of Israel happened in 1948, it wasn't just created in empty land, there was a bitter war that led to many Palestinians fleeing the newly created state. Israel's occupation of the West Bank since 1967, which, btw, was carried out against UN's Security Council, was nothing if not filled with bitterness, which continues to seep through to this day.

    I hardly care what Israel thinks its hoping to achieve. If it is asking the world to sympathize because it is being targeted by rocket attacks from the Hamas "terrorists", then, I can't help but also wonder what the almost 2 million Palestinians would ask the world, to understand what it must be like to be cut off from the rest of the world, to have huge trade blockade on pretty much everything, to be quarantined into "camps" in their own land, now, most recently cut off from power, water and sewage system?

    At the end of the day, I don't think Israel cares that much for peace as it does its own geopolitical goals, and I don't think Hamas cares as much for its citizens and peace as it does for toppling Israel's said goals. Neither theoretically wins, but both want to, moreso than they want peace. The civilians (including the Israeli ones), and, to highlight, as the numbers point out, mainly Palestinians civilians, are the ones who are literally losing in this game they are playing. And that should not be minimized, rationalized, skewed with biased "facts" or justified.

  9. #39
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Lowtech and @Mal12345 - it's quite astounding how you both view this in such black and white terms. One side is in the right, they're uniformly good. Israel. The other side is bad, they're uniformly bad. There's no room for nuances or reviewing of history through any other lens but the ones you've set up.
    I don't see how you can read my posts, including a rebuttal to one of Mal's posts, and conclude that I see the conflict in black and white terms (especially regarding the history of the conflict)......I simply lean more toward one side (especially when the other side is restricted to the Hamas faction, as they are the subject of this thread) than you believe to be warranted, and I'm not willing to automatically discount articles from mainstream Israeli newspapers (that's basically the same as automatically discounting articles from Al-Jazeera or Arab sources).

    Also, if you don't care what Israel is trying to accomplish, I daresay that accusations of willful bias against me ring a little hollow.....both sides (or at least the people both sides fight on behalf for) have legitimate interests in this conflict in general, and during this flare-up in particular. How would you suggest that Israel effectively protect itself from Hamas, with less collateral damage? I can think of many ways the Palestinians can pursue independence and freedom of movement in absence of terrorism against civilians or the ideological commitment to Israel's destruction (as contained in the Hamas charter).

  10. #40
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Lowtech and @Mal12345 - it's quite astounding how you both view this in such black and white terms. One side is in the right, they're uniformly good. Israel. The other side is bad, they're uniformly bad. There's no room for nuances or reviewing of history through any other lens but the ones you've set up
    John Kerry agrees with you. He took this viewpoint to the Paris negotiations. Israel was treated as if it were on equal terms with Hamas. Therefore the negotiations failed. If you want to succeed in bringing a temporary peace, then stop equating non-terrorists with terrorists.

    Krauthammer: Kerry 'Undermined' Israel-Hamas Peace Efforts
    'U.S. meddling in Israeli-Hamas negotiations has sewn "wreckage" in attempts to end the murderous conflict, according to Pulitzer Prize-winning Washington Post conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, who points the finger of blame directly at Secretary of State John Kerry...Kerry goes over and then he negotiates in Paris with who? Qatar and Turkey, and returns essentially as the lawyer for Hamas and hands Israel a proposition that is so outrageous that the Cabinet votes 19-0 against it.

    "Israeli Cabinets have never voted 19-0 on whether the sun rises in the east. It was unbelievable. It would have given Hamas all of its demands."'

    "A delegation of Palestinian officials, expected to include Hamas members, is to meet with Egyptian leaders in Cairo to discuss reviving a weeks-old ceasefire plan originally rejected by Hamas, news media in the region reported."

    News of the meeting, to be held without American interlocutors, comes as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is under fire for his eroding influence over the Gaza Strip conflict that has killed more than 1,100 Palestinians and 56 Israelis." This eroding influence is directly due to his failure to convince anybody using your non-black-and-white values.

    Open ridicule of secretary of state John Kerry as details emerge of rejected U.S. ceasefire plan | National Post
    'The Israeli media carried similarly mocking depictions in abundance Sunday — all fuelled by senior figures in Benjamin Netanyahu’s government, who professed amazement at the terms of a proposed ceasefire deal which they said were skewed in favour of Hamas, the Islamist militant group.

    Writing in Maariv, Ben Caspit called the U.S. Secretary of State “an ongoing embarrassment, with the characteristics of a snowball. The further he rolls, the greater the embarrassment”.'

    Your views ARE an embarrassment.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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