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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    One thing I know... Republicans whining about how younger people are all free-loading lazy uninformed losers constantly isn't going to make them flock to the Republican party. I'm inclined to vote for a third party, but whenever I read something like that, I'm more inclined to vote Democratic just out of spite.


    A lot of the conclusions you are drawing from that are pretty off. That data seems to suggest that the young people are more libertarian than you might think, not more "statist". I suspect you support a few "statist" policies. What makes the "statist" policies you support worse than the ones young people support?
    Points 1 & 3 are somewhat contradictory. If you want smaller government, welfare will inevitably go down.
    Points 3 & 5 are completely contradictory. Simultaneously wanting government to take care of people but not wanting to be "nannied" is a contradiction.
    Points 7 & 8 are completely contradictory. The fundamental tenant of social liberalism is egalitarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I don't call myself a libertarian because I'm in favor of wealth distribution to some extent. It would be a fallacy to say that I "want everyone to be the same", but I think less income inequality (which is not the same as none) would be a good thing, and would solve a lot of other problems. High income inequality isn't really good for an economy, because then nobody can afford to buy any of the things that are being produced. Being in favor of wealth distribution doesn't make someone a Stalinist. That's like saying being anti-immigration makes someone a Nazi.
    I am only in favour of wealth distribution in select, temporary circumstances, though I do support progressive taxation. I don't call myself a libertarian partly for these reasons, but mainly because they view people as mere economic units and support immigration. I support improving the quality and reducing the diversity of the people as a better long term solution to reducing income disparities.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It's obvious that @SilentMusings is a Mana Party supporter from New Zealand.
    LOL. That's a lame joke.

  2. #12
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Points 1 & 3 are somewhat contradictory. If you want smaller government, welfare will inevitably go down.
    Points 3 & 5 are completely contradictory. Simultaneously wanting government to take care of people but not wanting to be "nannied" is a contradiction.
    Points 7 & 8 are completely contradictory. The fundamental tenant of social liberalism is egalitarianism.
    I stopped expecting people to be consistent a long time ago. It has served me well in most cases. I do not see 7 and 8 as contradictory, if there are things preventing society from being meritocratic.

    I am only in favour of wealth distribution in select, temporary circumstances, though I do support progressive taxation. I don't call myself a libertarian partly for these reasons, but mainly because they view people as mere economic units and support immigration. I support improving the quality and reducing the diversity of the people as a better long term solution to reducing income disparities.
    Meh, there are lots of poor white folks, too. It's unclear how that would help with that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I stopped expecting people to be consistent a long time ago. It has served me well in most cases. I do not see 7 and 8 as contradictory, if there are things preventing society from being meritocratic.
    Such as the ludicrous idea that everybody is born equal?

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Meh, there are lots of poor white folks, too. It's unclear how that would help with that.
    Depends on the reason that they are poor. Anyway, this thread is not about me and my ideas. I should retire.

  4. #14
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2
    That data seems to suggest that the young people are more libertarian than you might think, not more "statist".
    There is an obvious disconnect between how they respond in a poll and how they act. The fact that they voted 60% plus for the statist party means much more to me than how they vote in a poll.

    I suspect you support a few "statist" policies.
    And you would be wrong. Libertarians are the opposite of statists.

    High income inequality isn't really good for an economy, because then nobody can afford to buy any of the things that are being produced.
    Income inequality is a symptom of a thriving economy; it means there is a wide range of opportunities to make money. In a thriving economy, the most competitive will make more money but that doesn't mean the bottom quintile will be less off. Far from it. Income equality is usually accompanied by decreases in unemployment and the poverty rate. The only instances where we've observed less inequality is during war and during the Depression.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #15
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    Maybe some of these statements are contradictory because there are some people who don't think they have all the answers. "Coherence" in political opinion can be a bad thing, to put it mildly.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

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  6. #16
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There is an obvious disconnect between how they respond in a poll and how they act. The fact that they voted 60% plus for the statist party means much more to me than how they vote in a poll.



    And you would be wrong. Libertarians are the opposite of statists.
    You are correct, but I don't think you are really a libertarian. Real libertarians tend to be disgusted with both parties, and regard the Republican party as equally statist, which it is, just about different things.

    Income inequality is a symptom of a thriving economy; it means there is a wide range of opportunities to make money. In a thriving economy, the most competitive will make more money but that doesn't mean the bottom quintile will be less off. Far from it. Income equality is usually accompanied by decreases in unemployment and the poverty rate. The only instances where we've observed less inequality is during war and during the Depression.
    List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Botswana has a booming economy?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    10 Fun Facts About the Millennial Generation

    "1. Millennials prefer smaller government, if larger government requires high taxes.
    2. Millennials are cautious of government power.
    3. Millennials still want government to care for the disadvantaged.
    4. Millennials strongly prefer free markets over a government-managed economy.
    5. Millennials don’t like to be nannied.
    6. Millennials are entrepreneurial and like business.
    7. Millennials favor meritocracy over egalitarianism.
    8. Millennials are social liberals and fiscal centrists.
    9. To stimulate the economy, millennials want action.
    10. Millennials are the most racially diverse generation. "


    What this tells me is that millenials aren't tuned in to the economy, to politics and to current events in general. They say they want free markets, but they support policies such as a "living minimum wage". They say they don't want a nanny state but they support the nanny state political party in droves. They say they like business but they support business killing policies like cap and trade. In short, these people (generally speaking) are statists who don't want to be called statists. The only bright spot in this poll are the millenials making $50,000 and more/year. 57% of millenials making over $100,000/year oppose wealth redistribution policies while only 39% of those making less than $20,000 oppose wealth redistribution.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    One thing I know... Republicans whining about how younger people are all free-loading lazy uninformed losers constantly isn't going to make them flock to the Republican party. I'm inclined to vote for a third party, but whenever I read something like that, I'm more inclined to vote Democratic just out of spite.

    A lot of the conclusions you are drawing from that are pretty off. That data seems to suggest that the young people are more libertarian than you might think, not more "statist".
    The GOP is actively pushing away young voters. Why? Social reasons. The millennials really just want people to be left alone in that regard. Yet, with the conservative movement putting an absolutely insane level of effort into legislating social conservative measures. Ever since the tea party surge in 2010 social issues has taken a huge front seat for a lot of their platform and it really really turns off millennials. I was born in 1989 so I am right in the heart of this generation, and nearly everyone I know feels the same in this regard. The only friends and people I know that support conservatives do so are either very religious, or were raised in a highly conservative household. The GOP really is out of touch with the younger generations and I crack up at some of the things they do.

    This really stood out to me the most. A lot of people usually equate libertarianism with limited government, but that suggests the opposite. They want a government that actually does something. This is certainly being bolstered by the mind numbingly inactive do nothing government we have at the moment. It's the most unproductive congress ever. It's how I feel and most people I know and observe feel, the purpose of the government is to protect people and repair things that are broken. When government works, it works. This doesn't imply a big or a small government. Simply, a government that does what it's supposed to do. My generation by and large feels that the majority of problems lies outside of washington. That's what needs to be fixed. Dealing with that will allow washington to start getting its act together.

    I don't really see anything happening in those ways though. What I see happening within the next 10 years is a formal split of the republican party. The tea party subset isn't really getting bigger, but they are getting louder and louder each and every day, and they want out of the republican bubble. It would be a stupid stupid move on their part, because it will split the conservative voting base enough that would allow democrats to gain much stronger (possibly majority) control in washington. It'd create a whole mess, and would likely eventually start a split in the democratic party later down the line. I'm very interested to see how this plays out.

    Really, my generation doesn't identify with either political party by and large. I don't. I don't support or vote for democrats, I vote against the republican party and tea party. They are doing nearly all the things that I don't want done. The democratic party as a whole doesn't really capture how I see things needing to be done (though they are a few in power who do share my views). I am most mindful of this because of the implication with the supreme court. If conservatives gain an upperhand and replaces ginsburg (who will almost certainly be gone within 10 years) with another scalia, or even a moderate like kennedy, we might as well pack our bags and give up.
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  9. #19
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Reason-Rupe’s newly released report on young Americans 18-29 finds that in nearly equal numbers, millennials support raising taxes on the wealthy (66%) and cutting government spending by five percent (65%).
    Six in 10 millennials also support increasing government spending on job training programs and national infrastructure and cutting taxes. Fifty-five percent also support reducing the number of government regulations on business.
    Reference: Millennials Like Action, Support Both Policies that Expand and Limit Govt to Stimulate Economy

    I wish the millenials would read Calvin Coolidge's speech about taxes and the role of government. I don't think the vast majority of these folks grasp why a limited government is preferable.

    "[This] country needs every ounce of its energy to restore itself. The costs of government are all assessed upon the people.

    This means that the farmer is doomed to provide a certain amount of money out of the sale of his produce, no matter how low the price, to pay his taxes. The manufacturer, the professional man, the clerk, must do the same from their income. The wage earner, often at a higher rate when compared to his earning, makes his contribution, perhaps not directly but indirectly, in the advanced cost of everything he buys.

    The expenses of government reach everybody.

    Taxes take from everyone a part of his earnings and force everyone to work for a certain part of his time for the government.

    When we come to realize that the yearly expenses of the governments of this country…the stupendous sum of about 7 billion, 500 million dollars — we get…700 million dollars — is needed by the national government, and the remainder by local governments.

    Such a sum is difficult to comprehend. It represents all the pay of five million wage earners receiving five dollars a day, working 300 days in the year. If the government should add 100 million dollars of expense, it would represent four days more work of these wage earners. These are some of the reasons why I want to cut down public expense.

    I want the people of America to be able to work less for the government — and more for themselves.

    I want them to have the rewards of their own industry. This is the chief meaning of freedom.

    Until we can reestablish a condition under which the earnings of the people can be kept by the people, we are bound to suffer a very severe and distinct curtailment of our liberty.

    These results are not fanciful; they are not imaginary. They are grimly actual and real, reaching into every household in the land. They take from each home annually an average of over 300 dollars — and taxes must be paid. They are not a voluntary contribution to be met out of surplus earnings. They are a stern necessity. They come first.

    It is only out of what is left, after they are paid, that the necessities of food, clothing, and shelter can be provided and the comforts of home secured, or the yearnings of the soul — for a broader and more abundant life gratified.

    When the government affects a new economy, it grants everybody a life pension with which to raise the standard of existence. It increases the value of everybody’s property, raises the scale of everybody’s wages.

    One of the greatest favors that can be bestowed upon the American people is economy in government." President Calvin Coolidge, August 11, 1924
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  10. #20
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    Saw this on reddit just now (and incidentially it's from the same website as well): Millennials Don’t Like Either Party, Democrats Viewed as the Better of Two Bad Option



    Again no surprises here.
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