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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    What percentage of muslims see that? Muslims make up approximately 2 billion of the world's population estimated in 2014, which is basically a quarter of the world's population. So 1 in 4 people in this world would consider themselves muslims. So when a tiny handful of muslims use this verse as a support to do what they want killing innocents, the rest of them are just being disobedient? Non, they are seeing the verse differently and interpreting it differently. You'll always get people who will justify their anger or whatever they have with whatever they can get. These are what people call 'extremists'.
    You either follow an injunction or you don't. It is blatantly obvious language. Also: The Quran actually warns against people who only obey parts of it, again beginning with an injunction, "Do not". You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Al-Hijr (15:88-91)

    15:88 Do not extend your eyes toward that by which We have given enjoyment to [certain] categories of the disbelievers, and do not grieve over them. And lower your wing to the believers
    15:89 And say, "Indeed, I am the clear warner" -
    15:90 Just as We had revealed [scriptures] to the separators
    15:91 Who have made the Qur'an into portions.

    From perfectquran.com:

    Al-Hijr (15:91)

    Transliteration

    Allatheena jaAAaloo alqurana AAideena
    The Noble Quran

    Who have made the Quran into parts. (i.e. believed in a part and disbelieved in the other).

  2. #12
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    Since this discussion is over maybe we can move on to discussing how to prevent another terrorist attack occurring in the future.

    I have already given my solution; which is treat the causes (multiculturalism and Western involvement in the Middle East), but that hasn't gone down too well for some reason...

  3. #13
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    You either follow an injunction or you don't. It is blatantly obvious language. Also: The Quran actually warns against people who only obey parts of it, again beginning with an injunction, "Do not". You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Al-Hijr (15:88-91)

    15:88 Do not extend your eyes toward that by which We have given enjoyment to [certain] categories of the disbelievers, and do not grieve over them. And lower your wing to the believers
    15:89 And say, "Indeed, I am the clear warner" -
    15:90 Just as We had revealed [scriptures] to the separators
    15:91 Who have made the Qur'an into portions.

    From perfectquran.com:

    Al-Hijr (15:91)

    Transliteration

    Allatheena jaAAaloo alqurana AAideena
    The Noble Quran

    Who have made the Quran into parts. (i.e. believed in a part and disbelieved in the other).
    Oh dear. Have you got your mind all over the place at the moment? First, you have not addressed the term that the initial quoting was quite clearly about attacking when they are attacking you. I mentioned that these handful of 'extremists' may or may not use that quote as justification for their terrorism. In return, all you have mentioned was that most of the population of muslims have got it wrong because they're not following what you think the 'extremists' got right. Most muslim communities in europe are even speaking out against what those people are doing trying to rectify the altered meanings.

  4. #14
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Since this discussion is over maybe we can move on to discussing how to prevent another terrorist attack occurring in the future.

    I have already given my solution; which is treat the causes (multiculturalism and Western involvement in the Middle East), but that hasn't gone down too well for some reason...
    Well not really, you've stated the what but not the how of it. By your logic a single house on fire would be a solution to a lack of activity in a fire department.

    But who is actually calling them? And what happens when the fire goes out?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    Oh dear. Have you got your mind all over the place at the moment? First, you have not addressed the term that the initial quoting was quite clearly about attacking when they are attacking you. I mentioned that these handful of 'extremists' may or may not use that quote as justification for their terrorism. In return, all you have mentioned was that most of the population of muslims have got it wrong because they're not following what you think the 'extremists' got right. Most muslim communities in europe are even speaking out against what those people are doing trying to rectify the altered meanings.
    I am multitasking

    The initial quote was a contradiction in many ways. You are right that Islamic terrorists may not cite it as justification for their actions, as there are others. But why don't you read the Quran yourself, you lazy sod. I am tired of spoonfeeding.

    A religion is not like a political ideology, which has a few fundamental tenants but is otherwise flexible and open to change. If you believe in Allah, the Quran is divinely inspired and by definition perfect and unalterable.

    If you are not a Muslim, there isn't any point in you arguing against me as you have nothing to gain.

  6. #16
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I am multitasking

    The initial quote was a contradiction in many ways. You are right that Islamic terrorists may not cite it as justification for their actions, as there are others. But why don't you read the Quran yourself, you lazy sod. I am tired of spoonfeeding.

    A religion is not like a political ideology, which has a few fundamental tenants but is otherwise flexible and open to change. If you believe in Allah, the Quran is divinely inspired and by definition perfect and unalterable.

    If you are not a Muslim, there isn't any point in you arguing against me as you have nothing to gain.
    See, this is the big issue right there. Mentality of: "You're not muslim, you don't know anything. Don't debate with me." or "You're muslim, you believe only your religion so I can't debate with you" nonsense. The misunderstandings people like you throw about exist as a product of trying to justify your initial biases and yet you've not read the intakes of learnt academics about the whys and hows of what you've read. Have you talked to them? Asked them for an explanation? Discussed your issues you find with them on a one to one basis? I myself am not learnt but I've had discussions and read about them.

  7. #17
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I'd go rogue and destroy them all. I have plans to see those places again.. if they ruin that for me, I'll become a merc overnight.

    I'm not going to get into a huge debate on extremists versus the muslim faith at all. Zero desire for that. But extremists don't make a whole what it is. If people thought of me based on the loud, rude, crude man-hating women out there they've seen before, it'd be a sad world to live in for me. Yeah, they're chicks, and they definitely exist. but. I'm not those girls--and yet I am a girl. They're a small number of a huge variety of women. They're everywhere.. yeah.. but they're still a small number. Most women are not at all man haters. The fact that most of the world is straight is enough to show for that. I think we can make similar parallels to the Muslim faith. I don't hate all Christians just because I run into a lot of cowardly or fake ones.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    See, this is the big issue right there. Mentality of: "You're not muslim, you don't know anything. Don't debate with me." or "You're muslim, you believe only your religion so I can't debate with you" nonsense. The misunderstandings people like you throw about exist as a product of trying to justify your initial biases and yet you've not read the intakes of learnt academics about the whys and hows of what you've read. Have you talked to them? Asked them for an explanation? Discussed your issues you find with them on a one to one basis? I myself am not learnt but I've had discussions and read about them.
    I can do the research myself, read the sources and come to conclusions. Academics are great at obsfucation and have a mastery of language: they use these to cover up their lack of basic logic. As i have explained before.

    1. God represents the highest possible ideal (perfection).
    2. Therefore anything that comes from Him is perfect also.
    3. (If you are a Muslim) The Quran is perfect.

    Given this, how is it possible to pick and choose bits to believe in from the Quran while being a Muslim? The best aspect of this argument is that it applies to other religions as well.

    By contrast: Any political view (take feminism for example, which kyuuei is alluding to) can evolve, provided the basic principles it is built on aren't violated. The danger of infusing religion with politics is that it then becomes absolute as well.

  9. #19
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    I live with muslims and speak with muslims on a regular basis. And under a benign and even holy exterior is an extraordinary level of hate, first directed at Jews, then at another sect of Islam, then at Infidels. And this is all taken for granted as the most natural thing in the world.

    It is crying out for a psychological explanation.

  10. #20
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I live with muslims and speak with muslims on a regular basis. And under a benign and even holy exterior is an extraordinary level of hate, first directed at Jews, then at another sect of Islam, then at Infidels. And this is all taken for granted as the most natural thing in the world.

    It is crying out for a psychological explanation.
    No it isn't. It's tribalism. Case closed bro.

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