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  1. #21
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I posted a picture admitting that men and women have alot in common.

    But saying that there are no biological differences is pretty stupid. The reason I fight that idea so hard is because it is based on an idea (egalitarianism) that is fundamentally wrong.
    I didn't say none of it was biological. That is stupid. I just said less than most people assume was biological.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    These are great! Thanks for sharing.
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    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Promote it for the purposes of self-defense then, not because the alternative "promotes gender stereotypes", a lie I have just debunked for you.
    You are being presumptuous. There is no lie here to debunk. I have already explained the need to promote karate. People can be truly free to choose an option only when (1) they are aware of it, and (2) they are not pressured to choose something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Males and females naturally perceive the world differently.
    No. Individual humans perceive the world differently. Some of this is sex/gender based, but much is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What you are referring to, I presume, are the beauty and entertainment industries, which encourage women to focus on their bodies. However this industry doesn't encourage women to be mothers, and take on feminine roles in society. I don't see how they do much except pander to female insecurity about their appearance, which is a very cynical way of making money. However, women have the choice not to buy those products.
    Beauty, entertainment, religion, many cultures, and generations of ingrained practice and attitude. Some of these promote a rather superficial and often harmful focus on physical appearance. Some promote motherhood as a woman's highest calling, while not similarly promoting fatherhood for men. Some simply promote notions of dependence and passivity. It would be much better to promote health and fitness, personal responsibility, and self-knowledge, for men and women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    By contrast, there is propaganda in universities actually denying biological sex differences, and more subtle forms of this exist in high and primary school education. Children don't have a choice about being exposed to much of this.
    If this is the case where you live, your school system is odd indeed. I volunteer extensively with local schools, and have never seen denial of biological differences, either overt or subtle, in my area. What I do see is an increasing effort to expose all students to a broad array of options, in terms of activities and careers. Lack of role models keeps practice lagging behind theory, but there is some progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    The idea that women should only be allowed to do ballet is an invention of Christian, 1950s society, and doesn't represent what I believe in. However, most women would rather become a ballet dancer than a black belt in karate anyway, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
    There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is really inherent. If it is the result of external pressure, then it is just as wrong as artificially constraining any other personal decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    In addition, it is very hard for a man to become a primary school or kindergarten teacher, which adds to the unbalanced environment. This is because left-wing women control the boards. After all, how could a man possibly want to teach young boys?

    Also as a last caveat: hardly anybody I know judges women for their life decisions to the extent they do men.
    This last comment is a critical observation, and one of the main answers to the question posed on another thread of what men have to gain from feminism: the same kind of freedom to make a broad range of life choices without judgment. It is this judgment of peers and family (and the low salaries) more than school board composition that keeps men out of kindergarten classrooms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    But saying that there are no biological differences is pretty stupid. The reason I fight that idea so hard is because it is based on an idea (egalitarianism) that is fundamentally wrong.
    Can you point out were someone on the forum has denied the existence of biological differences, or asserted that all people are identical? If not, I suggest you stop beating this dead horse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I don't mind women doing most masculine things.

    What I mind is them being told that those things are better for them to do, and that activities like ballet represent stereotypes. That is just not true.
    Sometimes masculine things are better - for everyone. Ballet is a stereotype to the extent that it is presented as "women do this and not that".
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Saw this series of pictures just last night. Really like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Males and females naturally perceive the world differently.
    I agree with this, but I do not think that we have a clear grasp on what the real differences are. From what I remember from my classes, we know that women's and men's fear responses differ, with more women having more of a tendency to act interdependently, while men tend to act independently. Women utilize more tonality and nonverbal cues in communication while men tend to be more direct with verbal language, though it is hard to know to what extent that is socially conditioned. Men tend to have stronger left-hemisphere-only processing while women tend to have stronger dual-hemisphere processing, which may be part of why men tend to have more singular thought focus and women to have several foci. Women tend to have stronger emotional memory recall. Men tend to be better with spatial judgment. Women tend to have greater perception of pain but also tend to have stronger pain thresholds.

    (If any of these data correlations have been overturned, please anyone let me know. They are mostly what I remember from my neuroscience and personality classes and personal research here and there.)

    These differences are significant, but the more "nontraditional" paths are open to both genders (and the rainbow of identities in between and outside the binary), the more we find that people of both genders can succeed and flourish in domains that were long assumed to be the natural consequence of biological difference. I think it is important to try to get an understanding of the differences but I also think it is important to get a sense of how far these biological differences actually go in determining individual preference and skill. As Coriolis pointed out, it seems for the most part that individual factors far outweigh biological gender difference when it comes to preference. I would add that practice, determination, and dedication are more likely IMO to have a greater impact on ability than gender.

    (For example: I know that my own spatial judgment is very strong and I have to laugh when men tell me that I am not as good of a driver because I am a woman. Women as a whole or on average may be less spatially skilled, but that correlation does not override my individual skill set, nor that I have had much education and practice.)

    Also as a last caveat: hardly anybody I know judges women for their life decisions to the extent they do men.
    A double-edged sword, though. Women's lives and choices can be "dismissed" - in particular this seems to happen when it is expected that a woman will forfeit her personal decisions and preferences to have a husband and children and prioritize their needs and preferences instead. My doctor, upon interviewing at med school, was asked why she wanted to take a man's place and when she would be dropping out to have children.

    Women can be simultaneously looked down upon for not "making more of themselves" in terms of not following a clearly-defined, high pay/status career path, as well as for "being selfish" in terms of spending too much time devoting their time to their own pursuits instead of focusing on family. Certainly there is pressure on women, too. I think it is a universal thing, though it may manifest in different forms.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    (For example: I know that my own spatial judgment is very strong and I have to laugh when men tell me that I am not as good of a driver because I am a woman. Women as a whole or on average may be less spatially skilled, but that correlation does not override my individual skill set, nor that I have had much education and practice.)
    I think that comment dovetails nicely also with the sense of MBTI preferences and types. Just because a particular group of people on the whole might show more or less inclination for a particular trait than another group doesn't mean that particular individuals in that group can't express the trait more strongly than individuals in outside groups. With traits like these we're discussing generalized preferences that a particular individual might or might not conform to even if overall they are identified as part of that group. The probability is not as high, but it still exists.

    A double-edged sword, though. Women's lives and choices can be "dismissed" - in particular this seems to happen when it is expected that a woman will forfeit her personal decisions and preferences to have a husband and children and prioritize their needs and preferences instead. My doctor, upon interviewing at med school, was asked why she wanted to take a man's place and when she would be dropping out to have children.

    Women can be simultaneously looked down upon for not "making more of themselves" in terms of not following a clearly-defined, high pay/status career path, as well as for "being selfish" in terms of spending too much time devoting their time to their own pursuits instead of focusing on family. Certainly there is pressure on women, too. I think it is a universal thing, though it may manifest in different forms.
    That does seem to be a typical dilemma from my experience. I've felt a lot of unspoken stigma when I was separated and following a career since my kids were in high school -- the insinuation was that something was wrong with me because I was not at home with my children, and I even had one well-meaning coworker debate the topic (unsolicited) with me. But there's also still a generalized stigma at "just being a mom".
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I agree with this, but I do not think that we have a clear grasp on what the real differences are. From what I remember from my classes, we know that women's and men's fear responses differ, with more women having more of a tendency to act interdependently, while men tend to act independently. Women utilize more tonality and nonverbal cues in communication while men tend to be more direct with verbal language, though it is hard to know to what extent that is socially conditioned. Men tend to have stronger left-hemisphere-only processing while women tend to have stronger dual-hemisphere processing, which may be part of why men tend to have more singular thought focus and women to have several foci. Women tend to have stronger emotional memory recall. Men tend to be better with spatial judgment. Women tend to have greater perception of pain but also tend to have stronger pain thresholds.

    (If any of these data correlations have been overturned, please anyone let me know. They are mostly what I remember from my neuroscience and personality classes and personal research here and there.)

    These differences are significant, but the more "nontraditional" paths are open to both genders (and the rainbow of identities in between and outside the binary), the more we find that people of both genders can succeed and flourish in domains that were long assumed to be the natural consequence of biological difference. I think it is important to try to get an understanding of the differences but I also think it is important to get a sense of how far these biological differences actually go in determining individual preference and skill. As Coriolis pointed out, it seems for the most part that individual factors far outweigh biological gender difference when it comes to preference. I would add that practice, determination, and dedication are more likely IMO to have a greater impact on ability than gender.

    (For example: I know that my own spatial judgment is very strong and I have to laugh when men tell me that I am not as good of a driver because I am a woman. Women as a whole or on average may be less spatially skilled, but that correlation does not override my individual skill set, nor that I have had much education and practice.)
    What I have been trying to stress is that psychological differences do exist, that they are heritable, and that they play a much larger role in determining one's actions than you would like to admit. This doesn't mean you are robbed of free will, only that these factors influence your perception of reality. It is also odd how you list all the gender differences you have then quickly try to play them down as unimportant.

    I have never denied that people don't have individual preferences and that there is a spectrum of aggressive, independent-minded behaviour. However, a few outlying individuals bucking a general trend don't destroy the trend. Until the left-wing accept that women are naturally drawn more to certain professions for example, this nonsense about quotas - especially in engineering, physics and similar subjects - will continue. They won't however, for obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    A double-edged sword, though. Women's lives and choices can be "dismissed" - in particular this seems to happen when it is expected that a woman will forfeit her personal decisions and preferences to have a husband and children and prioritize their needs and preferences instead. My doctor, upon interviewing at med school, was asked why she wanted to take a man's place and when she would be dropping out to have children.

    Women can be simultaneously looked down upon for not "making more of themselves" in terms of not following a clearly-defined, high pay/status career path, as well as for "being selfish" in terms of spending too much time devoting their time to their own pursuits instead of focusing on family. Certainly there is pressure on women, too. I think it is a universal thing, though it may manifest in different forms.
    If you are employing someone, especially for a high-paying job, isn't it fair enough to be worried if they might leave at some point?

    I wouldn't put it so bluntly, but I'd be reluctant to employ too many young women in an essential service simply for this reason.

    You've actually made my point about women being sent contradictory, confusing messages, for me, but have somehow come to the opposite conclusion about how to fix the problem.

  7. #27
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm going to be politically incorrect and muddy the waters by observing that many traditionally feminine things are stupid and shouldn't be liked by anyone.

    Does that make me an "enraged feminist"?
    What kinds of traditional feminine things do you see as stupid? Curious question.
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  8. #28
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What I have been trying to stress is that psychological differences do exist, that they are heritable, and that they play a much larger role in determining one's actions than you would like to admit. This doesn't mean you are robbed of free will, only that these factors influence your perception of reality. It is also odd how you list all the gender differences you have then quickly try to play them down as unimportant.

    I have never denied that people don't have individual preferences and that there is a spectrum of aggressive, independent-minded behaviour. However, a few outlying individuals bucking a general trend don't destroy the trend. Until the left-wing accept that women are naturally drawn more to certain professions for example, this nonsense about quotas - especially in engineering, physics and similar subjects - will continue. They won't however, for obvious reasons.
    My problem with your argument is that I do not think you have sufficient evidence to back up the bolded statement. I agree that there are differences, but what I am saying is "here is a documented difference", while you are drawing correlations and inferences from those biological differences that I do not think are as strong as you claim they are, because time and research trends are demonstrating more and more that there is less difference between male and female preferences and aptitudes when social conditioning as a huge host of variables is increasingly controlled for, and that is still with much that we cannot control. I have no problem saying there are differences or that the differences create consequences, but I think that there is far too much assumption of what those consequences are based on historical stereotype. Essentially I feel that you are linking many biological "causes" and social "consequences" that do not actually have a causal relationship, but instead are skewed by cultural influences.

    Though if it's quotas you're concerned about, that's really a separate can of worms. I'm not a huge fan of affirmative action, myself, though I'm pretty solidly a left-winger.

    If you are employing someone, especially for a high-paying job, isn't it fair enough to be worried if they might leave at some point?
    It's a fair question, but it is not a fair assumption. The problem is that the assumption that a woman will be more likely to leave ends up being held against all women.

    I wouldn't put it so bluntly, but I'd be reluctant to employ too many young women in an essential service simply for this reason.
    I don't understand why you would choose to penalize individuals who may have nothing to do with that trend. Why not instead push reform in the labor market such that it is more feasible for both men and women to work and have families at the same time? I think that would benefit both genders.

    You've actually made my point about women being sent contradictory, confusing messages, for me, but have somehow come to the opposite conclusion about how to fix the problem.
    IMO it's all about individualism. Treat women as individuals, not trends. It doesn't matter very much when you look at a single candidate for a position that young women are more likely to leave a position. You look at her education, her experience, her skills, and the length of time that she spent at her previous jobs. You ask her about her future goals and her ideal life. You decide whether she is fit for the position or not based on her individual personality, character, and merits, rather than nebulous trends that describe how people with vaginas usually act.

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    If you are employing someone, especially for a high-paying job, isn't it fair enough to be worried if they might leave at some point?
    I would be more interested in how I can retain an employee with outstanding skills and expertise once I have hired her, or him. People leave jobs for all sorts of reasons, from factors internal to the workplace (bad supervisor, sexual harrassment, poor match to job duties) to external factors (illness/death, alcoholism/substance abuse, got a better offer, family obligations). I'm sure statistics will show that some of these affect men more, and others affect women more.

    People like to cite family obligations as more common for women, but as women are claiming the same leeway as men to pursue a career, and men to care for their family, this is becoming less imbalanced. On the other hand, I think women would be more likely to stay in a job where they are appreciated and challenged rather than take that "better offer", if only because they are less likely to be a sole breadwinner and can afford to consider factors other than money. (I have that luxury now.)
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  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I don't mind women doing most masculine things.

    What I mind is them being told that those things are better for them to do, and that activities like ballet represent stereotypes. That is just not true.
    Many traditionally masculine things are better, for everyone to do, and I don't mean ballet or karate.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What kinds of traditional feminine things do you see as stupid? Curious question.
    My observation was intentionally a bit flippant, but still serious at its root. Below is a sampling of what I mean. I am aware that my answer reflects considerable generalizing, as well as my own personal preferences.

    • Toys: Toys traditionally marketed to boys involve more creativity, learning, and skill development (e.g. building/construction sets); traditional girls toys focus on decorating, socializing, and housework.
    • Clothing: This is a huge one. Women's clothing is often far less durable, sturdy, practical, and comfortable than men's, and while costing more. Women's shoes are more likely than men's to hurt feet through high heels and pointed toes rather than support use of feet for their intended purpose. (Consider here that women are more likely to need to flee from an assailant.) Pantyhose were obviously invented by a misogynist.
    • Handbags: I never understood why a woman will carry around a teeny, tiny purse like this while wearing 5-pocket jeans. Handbags yell, "all my valuables are here: come and get 'em!"


    • Shopping as a recreational or social activity: leads to excessive spending on unneeded things. Decide what you need, compare available products, make your choice, done.
    • Showers (baby, wedding): have to be the most tedious, banal, and insufferable form of socializing known to man woman.
    • Gossip: seems to serve no useful purpose, and do far more harm than good.
    • Girl Scouts: most of the Girl Scout troops I have encountered eschew the camping, hiking, fire-building, tool-learning that are staples of Boy Scouts, in favor of crafts (often not even "from scratch") and other relatively tame indoor activities. Less fun; much less learning.
    • Occupations: traditionally feminine occupations have paid less and provided less opportunity for training and advancement.
    • Personal qualities: dependence, submission, passivity; the assumption that a woman does not need to be able to earn a livelihood since a man will support her; even lack of intelligence (don't let a men know you are smart), especially innumeracy.

    There are many traditionally feminine things that by contrast are quite worthwhile. Most of these involve creative and practical activities, like cooking, sewing, knitting, gardening, canning, caring for the family with home remedies, even painting and playing music. Others are qualities that can be helpful to anyone, like compassion, nurturing, empathy, patience, beauty. And of course there are traditionally masculine things that are good for all, or are stupid, but enough lists for now.
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