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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I once read a pan-european study on the factors behind marriage and especially birth rates in different countries. It came to the conclusion that THE most important factor is job security and/or financial security. People postpone founding a family when they could lose their job at any moment and have no safety system to speak of to catch them when they fall. So you either need stricter labor laws or a welfare system that takes care of people between jobs, at minimum a social environment like the larger family to help out.
    There are more ways to skin this cat than stricter labor laws and growing the welfare state. You could incentivize marriage through oh say an increased child tax credit. By growing the welfare state and making it more comfortable to be jobless, you don't give someone the financial confidence to get married, you make it easier for them to relax and stay unemployed. If you want more and better paying jobs you have to legislatively cultivate the economic conditions for that to occur. Financial security does play a large role in the decision to get married and start a family, but making unemployment more attractive does nothing to create that security. If you want to have a system where the most people possible are working and financially independent of the gov't (which I'm not sure you do) you have to incentivize work to the greatest extent possible while simultaneously creating the environment for the greatest amount of economic growth reasonably possible.

  2. #52
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    There are more ways to skin this cat than stricter labor laws and growing the welfare state. You could incentivize marriage through oh say an increased child tax credit
    .

    That would mostly benefit those that already have a pretty decent job and salary though.

    By growing the welfare state and making it more comfortable to be jobless, you don't give someone the financial confidence to get married, you make it easier for them to relax and stay unemployed. If you want more and better paying jobs you have to legislatively cultivate the economic conditions for that to occur. Financial security does play a large role in the decision to get married and start a family, but making unemployment more attractive does nothing to create that security. If you want to have a system where the most people possible are working and financially independent of the gov't (which I'm not sure you do) you have to incentivize work to the greatest extent possible while simultaneously creating the environment for the greatest amount of economic growth reasonably possible.
    Well, the Scandinavian countries have a well-functioning system where it is easy to hire and fire (which benefits employers and goves them the confidence to take on new people without having to fear that they won't be able to get rid of them) but people also get high benefits for a short time after losing a job. That makes for a system where it is very easy to switch jobs and benefits both employers and employees.

    I'm also not buying the idea that welfare makes people lazy. I see the problem elsewhere, but that is where we are reaching deepseated ideological differeces that touch on different perceptions about human nature and would cause a massive derail.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    .

    That would mostly benefit those that already have a pretty decent job and salary though.



    Well, the Scandinavian countries have a well-functioning system where it is easy to hire and fire (which benefits employers and goves them the confidence to take on new people without having to fear that they won't be able to get rid of them) but people also get high benefits for a short time after losing a job. That makes for a system where it is very easy to switch jobs and benefits both employers and employees.

    I'm also not buying the idea that welfare makes people lazy. I see the problem elsewhere, but that is where we are reaching deepseated ideological differeces that touch on different perceptions about human nature and would cause a massive derail.
    And I'm not buying that what works for Scandinavia would work for the US. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And I'm not buying that what works for Scandinavia would work for the US. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
    I am sure ideology would ensure that it does not work. Just imagine how good Obamacare could have turned out if both parties had tried to make it work as best as possible...

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I am sure ideology would ensure that it does not work. Just imagine how good Obamacare could have turned out if both parties had tried to make it work as best as possible...
    Which became impossible the instant it was decided that the ACA would be shoved down our throats as opposed to allowing us to decide in an equal capacity what it would look like.

    But if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

  6. #56
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I'm also not buying the idea that welfare makes people lazy. I see the problem elsewhere, but that is where we are reaching deepseated ideological differeces that touch on different perceptions about human nature and would cause a massive derail.


    I guess it depends on the wellfare system in place. Lazy people, doesn't mean dumb, most likely smart and know-how on how to keep on cheating the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    .
    I'm also not buying the idea that welfare makes people lazy.
    It doesn't make people any lazier in terms of energy output, but indeed it makes them less scared to lose their job, and more likely to wait for an optimal alternative while they're unemployed rather than taking whatever comes around (which imho has more up- than downsides, but some disagree).
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    It doesn't make people any lazier in terms of energy output, but indeed it makes them less scared to lose their job (which imho has more up- than downsides, but some disagree).
    People generally take the path of least resistance.

    It generally helps to make looking for real work the more attractive option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    People generally take the path of least resistance.
    Please elaborate.
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  10. #60
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    .



    I'm also not buying the idea that welfare makes people lazy.
    It doesn't make people lazy per se, but here in the states it often creates disincentives to work. I was just talking to a ministry worker the other day who said he had to subsidize rent in the low cost apartments he runs by quite a bit just to make it worth while to get someone to work part-time because without it they were financially better off just taking welfare and not working.

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