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  1. #41
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    i really don't see why married people are threatened by this - if anything this makes it more likely that your kids will do better then more of their generation (a.k.a. children of single parent households) and be more successful in society - you are gaining a competitive edge - why is that a negative?
    Unfortunately single parents (as a group) affect us all indirectly because they draw from the government in disproportionate amounts in the form of government subsidies/benefit vs. the taxes they pay. Children brought up in single parent households are more likely to be teen parents as well as single parents. As single parents beget more and more children that are likely to continue the cycle the ratio of tax in vs. benefit out will have to be reexamined.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    i really don't see why married people are threatened by this - if anything this makes it more likely that your kids will do better then more of their generation (a.k.a. children of single parent households) and be more successful in society - you are gaining a competitive edge - why is that a negative?
    The problem is when you take a look at the gender of the kids and the gender roles expectations by society in general. I'm not addressing gender orientation.

    Boys need Fathers to bring them in line. Single mothers can be better with daughters, as the roles they teach are the same. Mothers can't teach boys how to be men. The problem starts where in most instances, children end up with the mother. Advantage for girls vs disadvantage for boys. It is not an advantage for all, only for some, perhaps. And even then, still a disadvantage for a girl, because how does the daughter learn that a man can be an equal partner? It is still up to the single mother not to push down prejudices. I'm not saying all single mothers are doing it, but I have good idea that, if the man bailed on them (because of his own father figure not bringing him in line?), what is the atmosphere in that home going to be like?

    So now it seems both sides are taught, just do it for yourselves. They only have to use each other. (selfishness).

    It is unfair to expect a single mother to teach everything there is too. Fathers need to step up and take responsibility. (sure there are dads doing just that)

    http://www.firstthings.com/article/1...nce-of-fathers
    Fathers and Sons | Psychology Today

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    The problem starts where in most instances, children end up with the mother.
    you'll get no argument from me there - we should definitely stop doing that (at the very least stop enforcing that when both parents want to be part of the child's life). child custody laws need a deep reexamination and overhaul IMO.

  4. #44
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    you'll get no argument from me there - we should definitely stop doing that (at the very least stop enforcing that when both parents want to be part of the child's life). child custody laws need a deep reexamination and overhaul IMO.
    Agreed

  5. #45
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Shared parenting is on the horizon. Shared parenting could be new divorce outcome

    "...children have a fundamental human right to an opportunity and relationship with both their mother and father".

    Shared parenting laws seek to create a rebuttable presumption Rebuttable presumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia of 50/50 shared custody as the default after divorce or separation, so that children would spend equal time with each parent unless there were reasons against it, i.e. an unfit parent.

    The largest feminist organization in America, NOW (National Organization for Women) has been fighting these laws (successfully) for years. https://nationalparentsorganization....ts-for-fathers

    @chubber @Society
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    The largest feminist organization in America, NOW (National Organization for Women) has been fighting these laws (successfully) for years. https://nationalparentsorganization....ts-for-fathers
    that's sort of being a concern i tried keping at the back pocket: to some degree, the fact feminists here are arguing in favor of equity, doesn't change what happens within the representation: there are republicans who are pro-choice, and democrats who are liberterian economically, but in the end of the day their votes and lobbied contributions go to representatives who don't fit the same bill. likewise, while i believe most feminists spokesman here are in favor of equity, they are still represented by "feminist" political organizations that aren't.

  7. #47
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    that's sort of being a concern i tried keping at the back pocket: to some degree, the fact feminists here are arguing in favor of equity, doesn't change what happens within the representation: there are republicans who are pro-choice, and democrats who are liberterian economically, but in the end of the day their votes and lobbied contributions go to representatives who don't fit the same bill. likewise, while i believe most feminists spokesman here are in favor of equity, they are still represented by "feminist" political organizations that aren't.
    Agreed.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I blame the public schools in addition to lousy parenting.
    You did not answer my question, though. What generation are you?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  9. #49
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I'd posit that the the graph (statement of facts) also illustrates a "problem" in so much as it is an indicator of the willingness/unwillingness of men and women to forge relationships that result in marriage and eventually families. There is a positive correlation between age of marriage and parenthood. I am sure there are many a happy "family" that are unmarried and raising healthy children, which the graph does not track for. Waiting to marry = waiting to have kids as several studies have shown the average age of parents rising. This impacts "the system". One example is the U.S. model for Social Security, i.e. current beneficiaries are paid with money that is taxed from the current working population so waiting to have kids as well as how many kids (# of kids is another issue of course) you have messes with this model. Social Security is an important issue for many people.
    The problem here is financial stability. Single-parent households are at a disadvantage because a single parent cannot earn as much money as two parents can, not because single parents are inherently unable to provide for their children. Robert Reich has some ideas how to fix the underlying issues, which are quite serious and affecting more than just child rearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I'm sure you logged into vent for many a reason that only you know and I implied otherwise, my apologies. I arrived at that faulty conclusion, in part because, I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact verbiage you used, but you wanted to "crush his ego"? (his being SilentMusings) and lamenting my arrival into vent since I was not SilentMusings. I mistook this to be the "main" reason. However I am dubious that ego crushing is efficient when you want to "bring about alternate perspectives" or actually "changing other peoples minds." Personal preferences I suppose. Then again it might have been the entertainment factor you mentioned.
    I had a similar disagreement about the best approach to dealing with SilentMusing's issues with Amargith. She advocated a laissez-faire attitude toward his public musings; I think, though opposition might fuel his counterphobic tenacity, that unchallenging connivance would give him the false impression of being right. To bring some typology into it: INTJs make public assertions about ideas in order to both state 'truths' and test them. His need to fail the test.

    Moreover, his posts do not hide the fact that his ideas about the various ways in which other races, nations, sexes and people are inferior to his and him result from personal problems, one symptom of and defense mechanism against which, as you can read in many of his posts, is a massively bloated ego. Therefore, I do think ego crushing is an effective way to help him and, more importantly to me, get rid of his silly ideas or at least their public display.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I don't know what model could work "better" but we had a model that worked, we are moving to a model that isn't working (currently). My mind is open to other ideas/possibilities but for the moment I have to conclude that the "old model" is better, i.e. a couple and their children is the optimal structure of the family unit that society depends on.

    Not everyone wants/is going to have kids. I get that and in that case the above is moot, as we already know that marriage as an institution has no bearing on being able to enjoy the fruits of a meaningful relationship.

    What do you think might be a move in the right direction Nicodemus?
    Better living conditions for the middle class, achieved through higher salaries. Any full-time job should be enough to feed a family.

  10. #50
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Better living conditions for the middle class, achieved through higher salaries. Any full-time job should be enough to feed a family.
    I once read a pan-european study on the factors behind marriage and especially birth rates in different countries. It came to the conclusion that THE most important factor is job security and/or financial security. People postpone founding a family when they could lose their job at any moment and have no safety system to speak of to catch them when they fall. So you either need stricter labor laws or a welfare system that takes care of people between jobs, at minimum a social environment like the larger family to help out.
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