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  1. #201
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I am inclined to agree with this. I think sexual urges are probably inherently objectifying. This isn't the same thing as saying that people should always act on these urges.

    And I know women check out guys the way men check out women.
    There is a difference in admiring views, even within 'objects' - kind of the way you'd treat and admire a piece of art to your liking, and the way you'd look at an oversized hamburger you're about to attack.

    Don't get me wrong, I also get those kind of thoughts about certain parts of guys bodies , but I always find it amusing to see that reaction within me. It also doesn't affect the way I treat that man - I just enjoy it. And often the 'art-like' way of looking at them follows those thoughts, especially if I take an interest in getting to know them.

    I have no problem with that kind of objectifying. But I do object (...pun intended?) to the hamburger-attack one being the standard one and getting justified because a woman doesn't cover up somehow, or worse - just for being a woman.

    A raw instinctual desire to bash someone's head in is something society expects you to channel into just airing your frustration and trying to resolve the conflict. This to me is no different from the same instinctual desire to motorboat some boobs that are on display

    Though, if you want to get nitpicky, this kind of hamburger-drooling is more akin to the way people seem to lash out at others in frustration and bully them - which unfortunately happens still way too often in society. And there too, way too much justifying and 'he made me do it by being so stupid'- tripe is used to absolve themselves from their responsibility.

    As for the objectification of men - it's an understandable backlash, but wrong all the same. It aint my kind of feminism, that's for sure.
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  2. #202
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    There is a difference in admiring views, even within 'objects' - kind of the way you'd treat and admire a piece of art to your liking, and the way you'd look at an oversized hamburger you're about to attack.
    I don't understand the distinction here.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #203
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I don't understand the distinction here.
    One inspires awe and admiration, and often respectful handling and treatment, as if it is precious - the other one is solely there for an urge to satisfy.

    Guess this is part of the problem.
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  4. #204
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    One inspires awe and admiration, and often respectful handling and treatment, as if it is precious - the other one is solely there for an urge to satisfy.

    Guess this is part of the problem.
    Oh.... well, the latter is pretty ingrained in our culture. It's not a popular point to argue, but I would argue that we actually place too much emphasis on sex, and this feeds into what you are talking about. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and hook-up culture has nothing to do with that. I don't see anything particularly "repressed" about the way we handle sexuality, we're pretty perverse, unless maybe you live in the Bible Belt.

    Count me as a graysexual weirdo, if you must.

    Having a ravenous sexual appetite is associated to being male in contemporary culture, though it was not always the case. I mean, it's not that I don't get urges, but as an introvert, I'm not inclined to chase after all of them. To want to act on that urge requires something extra for me. (I don't think it's that unusual for INTx men, but I digress.)

    I think some feminists, if they are serious, might want to look at that, instead of going on about men trying to appropriate and co-opt feminism, blah blah blah.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  5. #205
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I don't understand the distinction here.
    Art is intellectual, a hamburger is sensual.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #206
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Oh.... well, the latter is pretty ingrained in our culture. It's not a popular point to argue, but I would argue that we actually place too much emphasis on sex, and this feeds into what you are talking about. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and hook-up culture has nothing to do with that.
    True. However, I don't particularly see anything wrong with a hook-up per se - to me, it's just two people enjoying an activity together like rock climbing. But the difference is that in rock climbing....you see the other person as a person and possibly a friend and the activity for the activity it is. That...doesnt seem to be present in the current 'hook-up' culture. The other person becomes a disposable object somehow.

    I personally wouldn't have an issue with hooking up if I were to be single again, but I'd only do it with friends for this very reason.
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  7. #207
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    I was about to respond to @msg_v2 when @Amargith made the art-hamburger distinction which kinda summarizes what I was about to say (in a more INTP way):

    The term sexual object, as I understand it and have seen Sigmund Freud write about it, simply is the object (in the sense that the meadow is the object in the sentence "The sun shines on the meadow") of ones sexual desire. If you are a heterosexual man, women per definition are your sex object (and vice versa). In this case we are talking about a starting point A (the observer) and point B (the "sex object") which attracks the gaze of the observer (or on whom the observer projects his/her gaze) just as a nice paiting or a sunset or an elegant horse would.

    And then the last few posts made me think of the Kantian imperative not to treat fellow human beings exclusively as an end to a means, never to turn them purely into a tool or object. This, I guess, is what Amargith meant with the hamburger: Seeing the other person as something that exists solely within its function of serving your desires and your interests, something to be eaten/devoured and give you pleasure, then be forgotten (this too goes for both sexes of course, all of this is independent of gender or sexual orientation).

    A pretty girl or boy can be an object in the Freudian sense without being one in the Kantian one (and, under certain conditions, I assume, vice versa).

    Or, as she much more elegantly put it: paintings vs hamburgers
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  8. #208
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I was about to respond to @msg_v2 when @Amargith made the art-hamburger distinction which kinda summarizes what I was about to say (in a more INTP way):

    The term sexual object, as I understand it and have seen Sigmund Freud write about it simply is the object (in the sense that the meadow is the object in the sentence "The sun shines on the meadow") of ones sexual desire. If you are a heterosexual man, women per definition are your sex object (and vice versa). In this case we are talking about a starting point A (the observer) and point B (the "sex object") which attracks the gaze of the observer (or on whom the observer projects his/her gaze) just as a nice paiting or a sunset or an elegant horse would.

    And then the last few posts made me think of the Kantian imperative not to treat fellow human beings as an end to a means, never to turn them purely into a tool or object. This, I guess, is what Amargith meant with the hamburger: Seeing the other person as something that exists solely within its function of serving your desires and your interests, something to be eaten/devoured and give you pleasure, then be forgotten (this too goes for both sexes of course, all of this is independent of gender or sexual orientation).

    A pretty girl or boy can be an object in the Freudian sense without being one in the Kantian one (and, under certain conditions, I assume, vice versa).

    Or, as she much more elegantly put it: paintings vs hamburgers
    Kant did not say treat humans always as ends and NEVER as means. He said not to treat humans ONLY as means to an end. Perhaps that's what you're saying, but "not to treat fellow human beings as an end to a means" is a rather confused way of putting it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #209
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Kant did not say treat humans always as ends and NEVER as means. He said not to treat humans ONLY as means to an end. Perhaps that's what you're saying, but "not to treat fellow human beings as an end to a means" is a rather confused way of putting it.
    Agreed. That's why I said "purely".
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  10. #210
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    "Bodies
    In western thought, the body has been historically associated solely with women, whereas men have been associated with the mind. Susan Bordo, a modern feminist philosopher, in her writings elaborates the dualistic nature of the mind/body connection by examining the early philosophies of Aristotle, Hegel and Descartes, revealing how such distinguishing binaries such as spirit/matter and male activity/female passivity have worked to solidify gender characteristics and categorization. Bordo goes on to point out that while men have historically been associated with the intellect and the mind or spirit, women have long been associated with the body, the subordinated, negatively imbued term in the mind/body dichotomy.[29] The notion of the body (but not the mind) being associated with women has served as a justification to deem women as property, objects, and exchangeable commodities (among men). For example, women’s bodies have been objectified throughout history through the changing ideologies of fashion, diet, exercise programs, cosmetic surgery, childbearing, etc. This contrasts to men's role as a moral agent, responsible for working or being allowed to fight in bloody wars. The race and class of a woman can determine whether her body will be treated as decoration and protected, which is associated with middle or upper-class women’s bodies. On the other hand, the other body is recognized for its use in labor and exploitation which is generally associated with women’s bodies in the working-class or with women of color. Second-wave feminist activism has argued for reproductive rights and choice, women’s health (movement), and lesbian rights (movement) which are also associated with this Bodies debate."
    "Allowed" LOL. One of the things I love about feminism is how it takes some of the shittiest aspects of being male and turns them into some sort of benefit.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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