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  1. #191
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Coz thats exactly the attitud we d like to get rid of:

    The fact that somehow it is possible in any way to turn us into objects, be it with the removal of a piece of cloth or otherwise.

    Im a person - even when naked. Please see me as such.


    Also: the aesthetic of my body is none of your business, much like the clothes im wearing. Im not here to decorate your world with pleasurable stimuli - trust me, there are plenty of men that should keep their shirt on in that regard as well but they still get to take it off when it is hot and my sense of aesthetics somehow deals. Im sure yours will learn to do the same.

    Hell if we re going to start removing ugly shit, theres quite a few towns and cities that seriously could use a wrecking ball...
    In my experience, the desire to de-objectify women has only led to the objectifying of men. And I think that goes back to the sexual liberation movement of the 1960s. One can't have sexual liberation and de-objectification at the same time, these are in complete opposition. But beside that, one day long, long ago I was shocked to discover that women look at guy's asses with a certain lust.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #192
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    In my experience, the desire to de-objectify women has only led to the objectifying of men. And I think that goes back to the sexual liberation movement of the 1960s. One can't have sexual liberation and de-objectification at the same time, these are in complete opposition. But beside that, one day long, long ago I was shocked to discover that women look at guy's asses with a certain lust.
    I am inclined to agree with this. I think sexual urges are probably inherently objectifying. This isn't the same thing as saying that people should always act on these urges.

    And I know women check out guys the way men check out women.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #193
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    @msg_v2 your response was apparently eaten by the forum monster. I agree that sexual urges are inherently objectifying. But that doesn't have anything to do with acting on them. It just seems like to be treated as an object of desire would be a compliment. This however doesn't exclude being treated like a person. On the other hand, the women's rights movement treats male lust as the product of sociopathy, thus demonizing all males who have ever felt lust towards a woman - which is probably at least 90% of them.

    Edit - I see your response now. The forum monster apparently didn't like it and spit it back onto the forum.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #194
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    @msg_v2 your response was apparently eaten by the forum monster. I agree that sexual urges are inherently objectifying. But that doesn't have anything to do with acting on them. It just seems like to be treated as an object of desire would be a compliment. This however doesn't exclude being treated like a person.
    Yup.


    On the other hand, the women's rights movement treats male lust as the product of sociopathy, thus demonizing all males who have ever felt lust towards a woman - which is probably at least 90% of them.
    It's hard to say, because it's so broad. I definitely have met some like that. I've met others that weren't. Feminism is something that I find hard to generalize about.

    The ones that do feel this way usually tend to be in their early 20s, I've noticed.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  5. #195
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yup.




    It's hard to say, because it's so broad. I definitely have met some like that. I've met others that weren't. Feminism is something that I find hard to generalize about.
    I wasn't referring to every wannabe feminist out there filled with pathological amounts of penis envy, but to the central movement with its particular goals and ideology.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #196
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I wasn't referring to every wannabe feminist out there filled with pathological amounts of penis envy, but to the central movement with its particular goals and ideology.
    I guess I'd need more details.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  7. #197
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I guess I'd need more details.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_theory
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #198
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Bodies
    In western thought, the body has been historically associated solely with women, whereas men have been associated with the mind. Susan Bordo, a modern feminist philosopher, in her writings elaborates the dualistic nature of the mind/body connection by examining the early philosophies of Aristotle, Hegel and Descartes, revealing how such distinguishing binaries such as spirit/matter and male activity/female passivity have worked to solidify gender characteristics and categorization. Bordo goes on to point out that while men have historically been associated with the intellect and the mind or spirit, women have long been associated with the body, the subordinated, negatively imbued term in the mind/body dichotomy.[29] The notion of the body (but not the mind) being associated with women has served as a justification to deem women as property, objects, and exchangeable commodities (among men). For example, women’s bodies have been objectified throughout history through the changing ideologies of fashion, diet, exercise programs, cosmetic surgery, childbearing, etc. This contrasts to men's role as a moral agent, responsible for working or being allowed to fight in bloody wars. The race and class of a woman can determine whether her body will be treated as decoration and protected, which is associated with middle or upper-class women’s bodies. On the other hand, the other body is recognized for its use in labor and exploitation which is generally associated with women’s bodies in the working-class or with women of color. Second-wave feminist activism has argued for reproductive rights and choice, women’s health (movement), and lesbian rights (movement) which are also associated with this Bodies debate."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #199
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    "Bodies
    In western thought, the body has been historically associated solely with women, whereas men have been associated with the mind. Susan Bordo, a modern feminist philosopher, in her writings elaborates the dualistic nature of the mind/body connection by examining the early philosophies of Aristotle, Hegel and Descartes, revealing how such distinguishing binaries such as spirit/matter and male activity/female passivity have worked to solidify gender characteristics and categorization. Bordo goes on to point out that while men have historically been associated with the intellect and the mind or spirit, women have long been associated with the body, the subordinated, negatively imbued term in the mind/body dichotomy.[29] The notion of the body (but not the mind) being associated with women has served as a justification to deem women as property, objects, and exchangeable commodities (among men). For example, women’s bodies have been objectified throughout history through the changing ideologies of fashion, diet, exercise programs, cosmetic surgery, childbearing, etc. This contrasts to men's role as a moral agent, responsible for working or being allowed to fight in bloody wars. The race and class of a woman can determine whether her body will be treated as decoration and protected, which is associated with middle or upper-class women’s bodies. On the other hand, the other body is recognized for its use in labor and exploitation which is generally associated with women’s bodies in the working-class or with women of color. Second-wave feminist activism has argued for reproductive rights and choice, women’s health (movement), and lesbian rights (movement) which are also associated with this Bodies debate."
    The only relevant thing is the bolded. Which brings into the bigger question of fashion, diet, cosmetic surgery. I suppose male desire could be conceived by some as one explanation for that phenomenon. There are others.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  10. #200
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    The only relevant thing is the bolded. Which brings into the bigger question of fashion, diet, cosmetic surgery. I suppose male desire could be conceived by some as one explanation for that phenomenon. There are others.
    The entire quote is relevant, and indeed, the entire article. But I don't believe it goes back to male lust. Its a product of prehistoric living with its daily fight for survival. Women were necessary for reproduction, thus for maintaining the tribe's population and the survival of the tribe itself, because men are obviously capable of producing numerous children during the 9-month period in which a woman typically produces only one child. Women were therefore to be protected by the male population for breeding purposes. Or to put it in modern philosophical terms, a female's relationship with the universe (or the tribe) is defined by the male's relationship with the universe (or tribe). The female has no individual definition apart from the male.

    This tribalistic attitude has been moderated by Western European philosophical movements that define the male as an individual in his own right, and not just as a member of a tribe. Women were not included in this new formula, perhaps because of certain inclinations of the philosophers themselves, or perhaps because they found it easier to redefine the male gender than the female gender due to societal attitudes of the time which were ruled by male ideological predispositions.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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