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View Poll Results: In developed Western countries, is patriarchy still alive?

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  • Yes

    11 52.38%
  • No

    10 47.62%
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    uh. Like, a lot actually. Like "Here, here's a tiny taste of power to appease you so that you falsely think you have power in your life and don't bug me all the time or try to mutiny or riot." It's a pretty standard control tactic, and works like a charm.
    Hmm. I notice you ignored all my examples. A patriarchy giving women legal privilege over men is hardly minor - it has devastated the lives of millions of men worldwide.

    I call bullshit on this entire "theory". It makes no logical sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think it still exists.. but it's so diminished now that I can function in normal everyday life with just some cowardly douches making stupid youtube comments and drunken texts annoying me at times. I don't feel like men control me, or that I'll be raped the instant I walk out of my door.. I've certainly been to patriarchal countries, and there really is no comparison--we just don't have that in most of America if you choose not to live in it or to feed the beast.
    Therefore your day-to-day life is not affected by this elusive force, so I can only assume "patriarchy" is a convenient strawman for some other issue. You are actually making another one of my points for me, which is that American feminists need to go to third world countries before complaining about women's oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm sure they could get a mate .. but that's not really what we're talking about here. We're not talking about feminists. Feminists didn't make up patriarchy. It's a well-defined term with its own boundaries and stipulations outside of feminism.
    We've already deduced, from your own admission, that the complaints about patriarchy are a strawman. The next question is what that issue is.

    From my experience, most feminists are personally lonely and bitter against men, and this explains why they would take up a highly emotional worldview. The solution to this issue, then, is for these women to find happiness romantically - if I am right feminism will largely disappear as a consequence.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This comment certainly helps convince me there is no patriarchy.
    The thread subject doesn't deserve any respect.

    I am not going to expend much intellectual energy on nonsense anymore.

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    If a patriarchy exists, then surely it must be the patriarchy that is responsible for gifting women everything that they enjoy. And the inverse...if there really was a patriarchy of men, then it wouldn't really make sense for us to allow women have legal and reproductive privileges over men? Why allow women to have any power at all, as what would we get out of it?
    If patriarchy exists, then almost by definition, everything women have comes by its good graces: the good things they enjoy, and the restrictions, indignities, and outright abuse they often have to survive. The alternative is for women to create, find, develop, earn their own good things in life, and share them with a partner of their choosing, who hopefully wants to do the same. This culture of dependence is just a kinder, gentler sexism. The prisoner has to remain in jail, but then so does the guard. Better for both to be free to pursue better lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    White, middle class feminists = nerdy university girls trying to create an identity for themselves seeing they can't find a mate.
    White middle-class feminists (of whom I know quite a few) = professional women registering voters on their lunch hour; grandmothers volunteering at the shelter for battered women; college students posting flyers against human trafficking; housewives canvassing their neighborhood on behalf of a political candidate that supports legal gender equality; and even a few scientists speaking to schoolgirls (and boys) about the benefits of careers in science and technology.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If patriarchy exists, then almost by definition, everything women have comes by its good graces: the good things they enjoy, and the restrictions, indignities, and outright abuse they often have to survive. The alternative is for women to create, find, develop, earn their own good things in life, and share them with a partner of their choosing, who hopefully wants to do the same. This culture of dependence is just a kinder, gentler sexism. The prisoner has to remain in jail, but then so does the guard. Better for both to be free to pursue better lives.
    I am verrry suspicious of patriarchy "theory". Nobody who disagrees with me on this thread has tried to address the issues men have to face that I've mentioned, which I just can't imagine that a patriarchy would allowed, just to confuse women into believing they had power, as all men are affected, even the wealthiest and most influential. To answer your question, I just think a liberal political culture has developed in the last 50 years which many men supported and continue to. The reasons for that are irrelevant to this thread, which I am getting rather tired of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    White middle-class feminists (of whom I know quite a few) = professional women registering voters on their lunch hour; grandmothers volunteering at the shelter for battered women; college students posting flyers against human trafficking; housewives canvassing their neighborhood on behalf of a political candidate that supports legal gender equality; and even a few scientists speaking to schoolgirls (and boys) about the benefits of careers in science and technology.
    I have got a lot of respect for anyone who will try and change the attitude towards women in places where they are treated like property, sold into slavery or in danger of being gang-raped simply by being out of a house. The overwhelming majority of feminists in the West are not like that however; they are more preoccupied with protesting MRAs and supporting hate speech legislation, mainly over the net.

    If you collectively want my respect, then change your goals, and eliminate the Marxist elements from your movement.

    I don't see the point in commenting much about this anymore here. It isn't constructive and just makes me angry.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There's some truth to this, but nothing's that simple. You might have heard that selfishness wins within groups, and selfish groups always lose to unselfish groups. That too is over-simplification, but is a nice rule of thumb. Some of the exceptions to it also work against the idea that always trying to get yourself ahead is always the valuable trait. One sociopath in an altruistic group is more successful than two sociopaths in an altruistic group, because two sociopaths are too successful at screwing each other up. And so and so on...

    I think some of what's considered masculine might happen to lead to some definitions of success, but does masculinity corner the market on successful traits? Is nothing considered feminine useful? That would be hard to believe, wouldn't? So, when you select based on these archetypes, you're either throwing the baby out with the bath water or taking the wheat along with all the chaff.

    Of course, the second problem here is what I mentioned about masculinity points being automatically given to someone of the male sex. Is that fair if it is to include all the traits considered masculine? Maybe being competitive is conducive to success, but would it be right to just assume a male would have more of it than a female?

    Layers of problems.
    Competitiveness is not exclusive from cooperation. Team sports are obviously cooperative, but team sport athletes are also highly competitive players. Look at the athletes at the top of any sport and you'll find that they're among the most competitive people on the planet. Their competitiveness doesn't make them incapable of cooperating with their teammates. The same is true in many other professions, like finance (Wall Street) and politics.

    Anyway, my point was that this trait isn't valued because of some arbitrary decision by society, it's valued because it's a useful trait to have if you want to accomplish things in your life. We, as a species, admire people who have exceptional accomplishments, and most exceptional people have this type of drive to succeed.

    It's annoying when people act like society doesn't value "feminine traits". Of course they're valuable. Being a caring person is considered to be a feminine trait, but without caring people, life wouldn't be worth living. I think that's pretty valuable. It's obviously different than competitiveness, but that's fine, good even. Not every trait that is valuable needs to be directly applicable to the pursuit of power or prestige.
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  6. #26
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    i have been noticing more stay at home dads and working moms.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Feminists didn't make up patriarchy. It's a well-defined term with its own boundaries and stipulations outside of feminism.
    ...it is well defined: "a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe." last time i checked, legally we prioritize guardianship (and thus "tribal belonging") to the mother on a rather consistent basis (with rare exceptions), the complete opposite of patriarchy in it's well defined form.

    in order for the question to even be relevant, we need to at least recognize we are talking about patriarchy as it got redefined and extended under feminist academic circles, which naturally has everything to do with feminism.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Wait...

    White, middle class feminists = nerdy university girls trying to create an identity for themselves seeing they can't find a mate.
    Do you have an address for this university? I think I'd be well in there.
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  9. #29
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Hmm. I notice you ignored all my examples. A patriarchy giving women legal privilege over men is hardly minor - it has devastated the lives of millions of men worldwide.
    That's because your examples were weak *and* they all involved feminism which has nothing to do with this thread. In one sentence you're saying that matriarchy exists, and thus infer that patriarchy also exists by saying that not only do they exist but that people have hurt men by tearing patriarchy down via giving women power--but then say the 'theory' of patriarchy is garbage and it doesn't exist. So.. Which one are you talking about here? Because there's tons of feminism threads you can raid if you'd like. We're here to talk about patriarchy--which you can be a feminist and still participate in patriarchy.. and vise verse.

    Therefore your day-to-day life is not affected by this elusive force, so I can only assume "patriarchy" is a convenient strawman for some other issue. You are actually making another one of my points for me, which is that American feminists need to go to third world countries before complaining about women's oppression
    I'm not attacking patriarchy one way or the other. I just said that a male-dominated world is not really the world I live in, but the ashes of what was once dominated. For me, that's better, since I'm not male. I could see your panties getting in a wad over it because you are. I only assume you came in here to complain about women.. which you can really do somewhere else. We're not here to talk about the ladies for a change--but of a paradigm in many cultures.

    The point that privileged people should travel? Yeah, sure, everyone should see what it's like for people who don't have what they do. I think so anyways.

    We've already deduced, from your own admission, that the complaints about patriarchy are a strawman. The next question is what that issue is.
    Correction. *You* deduced by *putting words into my mouth* what you want to hear. I haven't made any bold claims on it one way or the other. I'm certainly not complaining about where I am at in my life or the sort of life I live--I don't attribute the success of my life to patriarchy, but I certainly am not complaining about where we are with the remnants and ghosts existing either.

    From my experience, most feminists are personally lonely and bitter against men, and this explains why they would take up a highly emotional worldview. The solution to this issue, then, is for these women to find happiness romantically - if I am right feminism will largely disappear as a consequence.
    I find men who get frowny faced and complain about women a lot, especially in conversations where we're not even talking about women but they just butt in and start crying about what a heresy it is that women are girls, are just as lonely. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you're single. I can't imagine why. If you're married, I'm going to go out on a limb even further and say she's a traditional conservative female who *grew up in a patriarchal household.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    ...it is well defined: "a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe." last time i checked, legally we prioritize guardianship (and thus "tribal belonging") to the mother on a rather consistent basis (with rare exceptions), the complete opposite of patriarchy in it's well defined form.

    in order for the question to even be relevant, we need to at least recognize we are talking about patriarchy as it got redefined and extended under feminist academic circles, which naturally has everything to do with feminism.
    It was American culture for a very very long time for men to be the head of their households. Just because it isn't like that, necessarily, now for EVERYONE doesn't mean it didn't exist before--nor does it mean the social implications associated with growing up like that don't still exist and get applied to everyone around those who did--nor does it mean that people aren't still growing up in that traditional mode. America, like many developed countries, are turning away from it as more families are broken and pieced together vs a standard nuclear household, and it's collapsing as the standard lately, seen especially with laws favoring women in recent years (sometimes to the detriment of men).
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I am verrry suspicious of patriarchy "theory". Nobody who disagrees with me on this thread has tried to address the issues men have to face that I've mentioned, which I just can't imagine that a patriarchy would allowed, just to confuse women into believing they had power, as all men are affected, even the wealthiest and most influential. To answer your question, I just think a liberal political culture has developed in the last 50 years which many men supported and continue to. The reasons for that are irrelevant to this thread, which I am getting rather tired of.
    The most significant issues men have to face as a result of feminism include having primary if not exclusive responsibility for the material well-being of the family as well as decision making in the family; and being expected to fight all our wars, respond to our disasters, do the dirty and dangerous work (the "women and children first" mentality). This is a tall order to heap on men, regardless of their abilities or inclination. Get rid of patriarchy and make (let) women shoulder their share, so men are no longer unfairly burdened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I have got a lot of respect for anyone who will try and change the attitude towards women in places where they are treated like property, sold into slavery or in danger of being gang-raped simply by being out of a house. The overwhelming majority of feminists in the West are not like that however; they are more preoccupied with protesting MRAs and supporting hate speech legislation, mainly over the net.

    If you collectively want my respect, then change your goals, and eliminate the Marxist elements from your movement.
    I have seen no evidence suggesting you are in a position to generalize about an "overwhelming majority of feminists in the West". At minimum, you seem far too young to have significant personal experience in the matter. I'm also not sure people here are trying to earn your respect. I for one don't care one way or another, and respond to you and others simply to add my point of view to the mix, and to share what information I have.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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