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  1. #81
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo
    Saddam is dead, and the Iranian mullahs aren't going to fire at the US - you are out of their range even if they did want to - so what are you worried about?
    That question would've applied before Saddam got killed. Suppose Iran acquires nukes and starts bombing Israel; Israel retaliates and soon other nations get involved. Don't you think it's in our best interest to stop those scenarios from happening?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That question would've applied before Saddam got killed. Suppose Iran acquires nukes and starts bombing Israel; Israel retaliates and soon other nations get involved. Don't you think it's in our best interest to stop those scenarios from happening?
    Iran won't bomb Israel, how stupid would they have to be. Israel has way more nukes.

    I think they just want them as a deterrent.

  3. #83
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Gen. Michael Hayden: 'The State of Iraq As We Know It Is Gone'

    Iraq has been split into three separate tribal units, and there's no turning back. The US under the Obama administration made some bad decisions three years ago which have left the state of Iraq where it is today.

    The US wants to give humanitarian aid to parts of this region. What for? To fuck it all up again?
    Humanitarian aid serves a purpose.
    The US did not fuck up. An earlier colonial power invented Iraq.

    Iraq is three separate tribal units.
    There was never an entity called Iraq.

  4. #84
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Gen. Michael Hayden: 'The State of Iraq As We Know It Is Gone'

    Iraq has been split into three separate tribal units, and there's no turning back. The US under the Obama administration made some bad decisions three years ago which have left the state of Iraq where it is today.

    The US wants to give humanitarian aid to parts of this region. What for? To fuck it all up again?
    As bad as Hussein was, he kept things stable.
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  5. #85
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    If you are looking for a direct statement, something along the lines American Exceptionalism is Interventialist, you will not find that in the 3 links I supplied. This is a conclusion that I've arrived at. Seems like semantics.

    The concept of Exceptionalism is not interventionalist. It's American Exceptionalism that is interventionalist because of how it is used to justify and explain action. I can't think of any conflict/intervention the U.S. has been involved in post WW2 that didn't invoke this as one of the reasons for doing so.

    The 2nd link:

    This faith in our unique virtue causes us to believe that we have not only the capacity but also the inherent latitude for action that no other country possesses. We are the white hats, the famous city on a hill, and our cause is invariably just, particularly when we use force. We can if necessary also override our own laws, engage in all sorts of secret activity—including even targeted assassinations—to protect our democratic system or further our perceived interests. There are always voices expressing opposition in specific instances, but inevitably a story of American virtue triumphs: we invaded Iraq not only because of its supposed holdings of weapons of mass destruction; we were freeing the people of Iraq and were sacrificing our citizens for this noble cause.

    "History begins today, particularly when the countries are weak, authoritarian or evil. They are bad and deserve to be changed, even by force, whatever their history."

    "It’s All About Us: If something goes wrong, we assume it is because the United States did not act or has no backbone or was afraid to show its unique virtue and power—or, in the latest jargon, insists on “leading from behind.” Failure to show this kind of determination is the reason for all the bad things happening in the Middle East. This is a common theme of those who believe we are failing to manage that region properly: we should know that Arab countries are waiting for our lead and love our involvement. (Of course, sometimes this is true, as in the case of the Syrian opposition.)"


    American Exceptionalism is practically in the tap water, Soma even and to suggest to an American that they are not "exceptional" by virtue of their nationality may "appear" to be anti-American. I believe we are exceptional, duh I was raised as one, however if taken too far blinds us to reality, which is that other nations/peoples probably think the same about themselves. It then comes down to how it is "used", which is to shield us and allow one to suspend their morality/ethics/principles etc. in order to justify action, sometimes unilaterally. All one has to do is look about and examine all the times that we "don't" use it to know that there is something wrong going on with the concept as it is applied. I'm referring to all the other dictators/"evil"/inhumane etc. rulers that exist.

    "The sense of being the global master promotes a state of mind which becomes addicted to self-worshipping and misinterpreting others. Assertions of exceptionalism humiliate and radicalise, and often do not recognise the extent of resistance they produce."

    What do you think about Iraq's situation?
    I don't believe that the US since WWII has justified its international activity primarily through a belief in exceptionalism, but through a combination of altruistic values and paranoia regarding foreign belief systems such as communism. There has been some rationalizing based on 'the American way of life' (which is exceptional compared to communism which is just another dictatorship disguised as an attempt to create an ideal society). The Domino Effect was and probably still is regarded as real, and it threatens to change a free society to a slave society. I don't have to believe that freedom is better than slavery based on exceptionalism. I simply have to prefer it because of the economic benefits, or because I prefer it over working in a dirty, scummy state-owned factory or communist farm.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #86
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    As bad as Hussein was, he kept things stable.
    Yes, and so did Soviet Russia. That's why, back during the fall of the Soviet Empire, I predicted that there would be a new international threat to rise up in its place. I didn't know what it would be.

    I'm not a believer in the Domino Effect, the nonsense belief that one country after another will fall to the Communist system until eventually the United States is also taken over. So the idea of the USSR invading a dirt-hole like Afghanistan didn't concern me. I felt sorry for the Afghan people to an extent, but only because I knew nothing about them at the time.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #87
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Yes, and so did Soviet Russia. That's why, back during the fall of the Soviet Empire, I predicted that there would be a new international threat to rise up in its place. I didn't know what it would be.

    I'm not a believer in the Domino Effect, the nonsense belief that one country after another will fall to the Communist system until eventually the United States is also taken over. So the idea of the USSR invading a dirt-hole like Afghanistan didn't concern me. I felt sorry for the Afghan people to an extent, but only because I knew nothing about them at the time.
    The War on Terror
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  8. #88
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Yes, and so did Soviet Russia. That's why, back during the fall of the Soviet Empire, I predicted that there would be a new international threat to rise up in its place. I didn't know what it would be.

    I'm not a believer in the Domino Effect, the nonsense belief that one country after another will fall to the Communist system until eventually the United States is also taken over. So the idea of the USSR invading a dirt-hole like Afghanistan didn't concern me. I felt sorry for the Afghan people to an extent, but only because I knew nothing about them at the time.
    The War on Terror
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
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    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  9. #89
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    In my mind I picture a thousand Iraqi Tom Hanks stuck in a thousand different airports.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  10. #90
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I don't believe that the US since WWII has justified its international activity primarily through a belief in exceptionalism, but through a combination of altruistic values and paranoia regarding foreign belief systems such as communism. There has been some rationalizing based on 'the American way of life' (which is exceptional compared to communism which is just another dictatorship disguised as an attempt to create an ideal society). The Domino Effect was and probably still is regarded as real, and it threatens to change a free society to a slave society. I don't have to believe that freedom is better than slavery based on exceptionalism. I simply have to prefer it because of the economic benefits, or because I prefer it over working in a dirty, scummy state-owned factory or communist farm.
    There is a reason I used WWII as the benchmark. American Exceptionalism was an advent of the Cold War. Just like "In God We Trust" (1957) being added to our currency In God we trust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and "one nation under god" (1954) being added to our pledge of allegiance Pledge of Allegiance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It just goes to show you how people will suspend their principles (our founders vision for a separation of church & state) when they are in a state of fear (of the godless Soviets). Funny how history repeats itself... The Patriot Act, a different fear but same result, messing with our founding principles. This goes towards the point that I was making that American Exceptionalism is a shield that not only deflects criticism of American Foreign Policy (from a values perspective) from "others" but and allows "us" to suspend our principles/ethics/morals, we are shielding ourselves from self reflection upon our actions. It's seems very similar to an ego defense mechanism.

    "Fear is the mind-killer."
    "Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration."

    The first link I supplied is critical of the concept via a historical/philosophical context and I think it's the one you'd enjoy the most if you haven't read it already. American Exceptionalism...Exposed | Foreign Policy Research Institute Something to factor in for sure, imo whichever way you fall on the topic.

    I listened to Obama talk about what the U.S. is going to do in response to this whole situation and find myself in agreement with him. I am concerned though about the 300 special forces "trainers" he sent though. Mission Creep Mission creep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    My thoughts "overall": We gtfo and now we need to stfo (the s means stay), no boots on the ground at ALL.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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