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  1. #71
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    He may have, but he wasn't the only one.
    Check out this Cheney clip from 1994. He knew what the U.S. was getting into, a quagmire of sectarianism, and yet he still supported Bush's Daddy issues. Bush Sr. left a decent legacy. Bush Jr. left a financial black hole.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I

  2. #72
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Posting two links doesn't prove your point.
    I do not have time for an essay on the subject However I leave it up to the reader to draw their own conclusions based on the reference sources I supplied.

    UPDATE:

    Here are some essays (aka walls of text) that support my statement. These are someone else's thoughts that I think apply to what Silent Musings was describing and then I re-framed (which was my point) as symptoms of American Exceptionalism.

    American Exceptionalism...Exposed | Foreign Policy Research Institute

    How American Exceptionalism Dooms U.S. Foreign Policy | The National Interest

    An article by Al Jazeera The illusion of American exceptionalism - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

    I challenge my own thoughts/ideas/values to arrive at a more distilled "truth" frequently and what better way than via a critic. These critics of American Exceptionalism (which I used to believe in) make points that resonate with me and I've since arrived at a new "truth".
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #73
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I do not have time for an essay on the subject However I leave it up to the reader to draw their own conclusions based on the reference sources I supplied.

    UPDATE:

    Here are some essays (aka walls of text) that support my statement. These are someone else's thoughts that I think apply to what Silent Musings was describing and then I re-framed (which was my point) as symptoms of American Exceptionalism.

    American Exceptionalism...Exposed | Foreign Policy Research Institute written by the a writer with the Foreign Policy Research Institute.

    How American Exceptionalism Dooms U.S. Foreign Policy | The National Interest By National Interest.

    An article by Al Jazeera The illusion of American exceptionalism - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

    I challenge my own thoughts/ideas/values to arrive at a more distilled "truth" frequently and what better way than via a critic. These critics of American Exceptionalism (which I used to believe in) make points that resonate with me and I've since arrived at a new "truth".
    Why don't you believe in it anymore?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #74
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Why don't you believe in it anymore?
    On a principle/values level it is interventionist in nature.

    On a practical level it shifts resources to the military industrial complex (not a judgement, just a matter of fact) vs. other things that could be done with these resources that are more in alignment with my own interests.

    It also seems inefficient time/effort/money wise to solving global political issues, as it "tends" to escalate matters, requiring more investment.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #75
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Check out this Cheney clip from 1994. He knew what the U.S. was getting into, a quagmire of sectarianism, and yet he still supported Bush's Daddy issues. Bush Sr. left a decent legacy. Bush Jr. left a financial black hole.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I
    That's fascinating stuff. He's actually kind of on the mark with that, with the exception of Syria. But then the Arab Spring wasn't really something most people would have predicted. Bush Jr. was a disaster as a president.

    The situation in Iraq (and Syria too, for that matter) is essentially damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we supported the anti-Assad forces more strongly, that would have included Al-Qaeda, and they would have been more than happy to fight U.S. troops, eventually. And of course, if we do nothing, things also get bad.

    Saddam Hussein was a massive prick, but the truth of the matter is that Iraq under his rule was not a haven for Al Qaeda or Islamic fundamentalism. Baathism was basically secular Arab fascism. OBL was really not the best of pals with Hussein. Not that people usually care to read up on such things.

    There are lots of totalitarian regimes and dictators around the world. We can't over throw all of them, and some of them we are even allies with. China is a major trading partner, and then there's Saudi Arabia, one of the few remaining absolute monarchies on Earth, who also happen to spread a puritanical form of Islam. There's some debate on how much this philosophy influences that of jihadists, exactly, but it's not exactly a philosophy of puppies and freedom.

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  6. #76
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    On a principle/values level it is interventionist in nature.

    On a practical level it shifts resources to the military industrial complex (not a judgement, just a matter of fact) vs. other things that could be done with these resources that are more in alignment with my own interests.

    It also seems inefficient time/effort/money wise to solving global political issues, as it "tends" to escalate matters, requiring more investment.
    Does it say in one of those 3 links that exceptionalism is interventionist in nature?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    If the US stays intertwined, it's bad news for the US. However, if the US takes a hands-off posture toward the whole situation, it'll be bad news for the US. In case you've forgotten, one goal of Islamic terrorism is the complete destruction of that Great Satan the United States of America.
    How is it bad news for Americans to be less involved with the Middle East?

    The first terrorist attack in America was in 2001, but Islam has existed since the 6th century. The reason you guys are hated so much is because you have been heathen occupiers of holy Islamic land. Get out, and pretty soon you won't be a target.

  8. #78
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo
    The first terrorist attack in America was in 2001, but Islam has existed since the 6th century.
    1993 World Trade Center bombing

    Should the international community just let Saddam and the crazies in Iran acquire nukes?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #79
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    If you are looking for a direct statement, something along the lines American Exceptionalism is Interventialist, you will not find that in the 3 links I supplied. This is a conclusion that I've arrived at. Seems like semantics.

    The concept of Exceptionalism is not interventionalist. It's American Exceptionalism that is interventionalist because of how it is used to justify and explain action. I can't think of any conflict/intervention the U.S. has been involved in post WW2 that didn't invoke this as one of the reasons for doing so.

    The 2nd link:

    This faith in our unique virtue causes us to believe that we have not only the capacity but also the inherent latitude for action that no other country possesses. We are the white hats, the famous city on a hill, and our cause is invariably just, particularly when we use force. We can if necessary also override our own laws, engage in all sorts of secret activity—including even targeted assassinations—to protect our democratic system or further our perceived interests. There are always voices expressing opposition in specific instances, but inevitably a story of American virtue triumphs: we invaded Iraq not only because of its supposed holdings of weapons of mass destruction; we were freeing the people of Iraq and were sacrificing our citizens for this noble cause.

    "History begins today, particularly when the countries are weak, authoritarian or evil. They are bad and deserve to be changed, even by force, whatever their history."

    "It’s All About Us: If something goes wrong, we assume it is because the United States did not act or has no backbone or was afraid to show its unique virtue and power—or, in the latest jargon, insists on “leading from behind.” Failure to show this kind of determination is the reason for all the bad things happening in the Middle East. This is a common theme of those who believe we are failing to manage that region properly: we should know that Arab countries are waiting for our lead and love our involvement. (Of course, sometimes this is true, as in the case of the Syrian opposition.)"


    American Exceptionalism is practically in the tap water, Soma even and to suggest to an American that they are not "exceptional" by virtue of their nationality may "appear" to be anti-American. I believe we are exceptional, duh I was raised as one, however if taken too far blinds us to reality, which is that other nations/peoples probably think the same about themselves. It then comes down to how it is "used", which is to shield us and allow one to suspend their morality/ethics/principles etc. in order to justify action, sometimes unilaterally. All one has to do is look about and examine all the times that we "don't" use it to know that there is something wrong going on with the concept as it is applied. I'm referring to all the other dictators/"evil"/inhumane etc. rulers that exist.

    "The sense of being the global master promotes a state of mind which becomes addicted to self-worshipping and misinterpreting others. Assertions of exceptionalism humiliate and radicalise, and often do not recognise the extent of resistance they produce."

    What do you think about Iraq's situation?
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Ouch, complete brain freeze. I can admit when I'm wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Should the international community just let Saddam and the crazies in Iran acquire nukes?
    Saddam is dead, and the Iranian mullahs aren't going to fire at the US - you are out of their range even if they did want to - so what are you worried about?

    BTW as @SpankyMcFly pointed out it is Saudi Arabia (a US ally) not Iran that encourages jihads.

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