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  1. #51
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Define "natural form of government."
    A garment that you carry well rather than another one that you are not accustommed to.

    Democracy turns to a farce when people are not allowed to make informed choices or when the key institutions are not in place or people running those instituions have not yet internalized the basic democratic behaviour like respect for alternative views etc.

    You control media and people's information outlets, keep people poorly-educated, encourage narcissism, opportunism and selfishness and then entrust the system to such people; you end up with a system that is de jure democracy yet de facto an oligarchy.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Heheh. The suspense must be agonizing. I know it freaks INTPs out to be told that they are typical.

    As for my reasons, well; the stereotypical American has a condescending attitude to people from other countries, and sees imposing American culture & values upon them as a positive. Sometimes, this can be merely irritating. However when this principle is applied politically (example: you) it causes a great deal of trouble.

    95% of Americans I've met, and I have met mainly wealthy, white Americans - who should be the least like this - come across as loud, arrogant and aggressive people. They tend to hold variations of a political view called neoconservatism, the vibes of which I'm picking up from you.
    Are you sure it's 95%? Did you take an exact measurement or are you just guessing?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #53
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    A garment that you carry well rather than another one that you are not accustommed to.

    Democracy turns to a farce when people are not allowed to make informed choices or when the key institutions are not in place or people running those instituions have not yet internalized the basic democratic behaviour like respect for alternative views etc.

    You control media and people's information outlets, keep people poorly-educated, encourage narcissism, opportunism and selfishness and then entrust the system to such people; you end up with a system that is de jure democracy yet de facto an oligarchy.
    I do what? I work, I pay bills, I take care of my family.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #54
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    It's just that we individuals are actually powerless even in democracies, and people of influence and power\wealth are casting this illusion of freedom and will to choose over us, while they use their power to manipulate whatever state apparatus they can get their hands on. That is not just limited to US.

    Sometimes I feel like a chicken in those cramped factories who is trying to get some relatively better living conditions (like a free-range chicken) despite still being trapped in the factory.

    There's something fundementally wrong with the global administrative system. The system needs a purge to flush out the bad blood.
    If you wanna break out of your chicken coup and make a difference, it's easy. Just possess millions and/or billions of dollars.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  5. #55
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo
    Besides, wars are expensive. Aren't you a conservative? Who is going to be paying for this and what do you personally get out of it?
    The proper time to make this argument is BEFORE the war. As Colin Powell said, if we break it, it's ours. We owe the Iraqi people because we removed the Hussein regime from power. Yes, wars are expensive, but the whole point of the Afghanistan war was to prevent that nation from becoming a terrorist haven. It doesn't make sense to let terrorists take over Iraq.

    Also, I'm not a conservative; I'm a libertarian. Religious conservatives unfortunately favor big government policies like the drug war.

    Be honest, this is your attempt to make American interests appear benevolent.
    Not at all; if I were in charge, we would've nuked the al-qaeda controlled regions of Afghanistan. Then, I would have restricted all travel from jihadist nations, including Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. I have no interest in that region other than security from attack by jihadists.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    The proper time to make this argument is BEFORE the war. As Colin Powell said, if we break it, it's ours. We owe the Iraqi people because we removed the Hussein regime from power. Yes, wars are expensive, but the whole point of the Afghanistan war was to prevent that nation from becoming a terrorist haven. It doesn't make sense to let terrorists take over Iraq.

    Also, I'm not a conservative; I'm a libertarian. Religious conservatives unfortunately favor big government policies like the drug war.
    If you go back into Iraq, you will have to stay there. As I explained, these people do not naturally organise in a massive way so you will always have to prop up the country, and this is not practical politically. It doesn't help national security either - as America becomes more closely intertwined with Iraq, the anger will increase. If you are concerned for your country's safety, far better to stay away. I also have a vested interest in this - as America pulls other countries along, we get exposed to any blowback, like terrorist attacks (eg London and Madrid bombings)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Not at all; if I were in charge, we would've nuked the al-qaeda controlled regions of Afghanistan. Then, I would have restricted all travel from jihadist nations, including Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. I have no interest in that region other than security from attack by jihadists.
    Well, that didn't happen. All I can say here is that it makes no sense to entangle ourselves further.

  7. #57
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I do what? I work, I pay bills, I take care of my family.
    not specifically you.

  8. #58
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    If you wanna break out of your chicken coup and make a difference, it's easy. Just possess millions and/or billions of dollars.
    I don't have what it takes to do that.

  9. #59
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo
    If you go back into Iraq, you will have to stay there.
    We still have troops in Germany, South Korea, and Japan.

    As I explained, these people do not naturally organise in a massive way so you will always have to prop up the country, and this is not practical politically.
    What do you think of Obama's plan to send in 300 consultants? I don't think they need as much consulting as a backbone and weapons.

    All I can say here is that it makes no sense to entangle ourselves further.
    That would be a great plan if we built a wall on the southern border and body cavity searched every muslim from a jihadist nation.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    We still have troops in Germany, South Korea, and Japan.
    I can understand the American motivation for troops in Germany and South Korea (as much as I find it immoral and a waste of money) but Japan?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    What do you think of Obama's plan to send in 300 consultants? I don't think they need as much consulting as a backbone and weapons.
    I would agree with you that such a "plan" achieves nothing. Honestly, just cut out your oil dependency and let them scrap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That would be a great plan if we built a wall on the southern border and body cavity searched every muslim from a jihadist nation.
    Not going to happen without nationalism

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